Photo Lab Profiles

[fred525]

I'm trying to figure how to get the best prints from my local photo lab. I the digital Canon forum I asked this question and was told to download the profile for the local lab and that would help significantly.

However, this particular user is a CS2 user and not PSE4 so he's not sure how to implement this profile for saving images for processing at the lab.

Can anyone here tell me how to do this? I see a lot of help about profiles for specific printers and I imagine this is similar but I'm not having any luck figuring it out on my own.

Please let me know if you can help me.

Thanks.

[William Allen]

I'm not sure if you can download an outside profile in Elements. There may be a workaround, but, I don't know what it is.

I use labs myself and do just fine giving them images prepared in Srgb. Most labs will ask for images done like that and in JPEG format.

Best solution is to call the lab and ask.

Hope that helps.

[Codebreaker]

The question to ask the labs is do they perform the colour management. If yes, then you could supply them with an image in any colour space as they'll do the conversion.

The main reasons for asking labs to provide their profile is so that you can 'Soft Proof' the image in Photoshop (but not Elements). This will give you some indication of what the result will look like at your workstation.

At a guess I would assume that most consumer level labs will accept sRGB as this is most probably the widest used profile.

Colin

[Ric Cisson]

Most labs do not color manage their front line printers. Speaking from the Frontier system by Fuji, most digital mini labs ignore imbedded profiles and assume that files are in sRGB. If you are dealing with a lab and such is the case, best advise is to have proof prints made with no corrections or any special software turned off, such as Image Intelligenc (Fuji associated program with the Frontier systems.) and then compare to your monitor. Make adjustments from there. If you are dealing with a lab that does maintain color management throughout on all systems in house, call and ask for advise in dealing with prepping your files. Also, review info provided by www.drycreekphoto.com as they have several profiles available for digital mini labs out there. There may be a current profile on hand for a lab near you, to download for soft proofing. You will probablly have to do your soft proofing in Photoshop. Hope this helps.:)

[fred525]

Ric,
I'm beginning to understand the significace of monitor calibration and am working on that. The other question I'm trying to answer is how to apply one of those lab photos from drycreekphoto to the pictures I save in PSE4 and submit online. I've downloaded the icc file for my local lab but I don't know how to implement it for my files in PSE4.

Can you help me with this?

Fred

[Codebreaker]

Fred....

You cannot do this within Elements. You would need the full Photoshop to achieve this.

Colin

[mom to 4]

I don't know if I am way off on this ......... but here goes anyway:D

I had a photo that I uploaded to my favorite photo processor. When I got it, I was shocked at how it looked. Upon talking to the person there, she suggested that when I am ordering prints, I should look for a box with editing options on THEIR site and then go to the color correction box and turn off the color correction. She told me that way the prints would turn out just as they appear on my computer, not the way THEIR computer thinks it should look.

Oh, and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to calibrate my monitor. It is not a very expensive one (cost about $300) flat screen, LCD????, Sylvania. Should I do something to it? I must say when I look at photos on my neighors monitor I am blown away by the way they look, although I am not sure why......he may just be a much better photographer!!!!!!!!:D

[Codebreaker]

Colleen....

In my opinion everyone should calibrate and profile their displays.

When my daughters were very young we decided to get their eyes tested and found they both needed to wear glasses. They commented how different the world looked all of a sudden - clear and bright. Up until then they hadn't noticed that they had a problem - how would they know - they had nothing else to see with?

The display is the only real thing you'll see your images on and make judgements about how much, if any, correction needs doing. If your display has a bias towards one colour or another or is too bright or too dark, you'll make changes to get it looking good on screen and then find that your prints are way out or your friends gets a poor view on their screen when you send them a copy.

As a minimum run the Adobe Gamma Wizard. If you can, get a profiling device.

It will be like a new pair of glasses :)

Colin

[mom to 4]

Not to sound too much like an idiot, but where do I find that?:o


And.....I understand exactly what you mean about the glasses thing!

[Codebreaker]

Assuming your running Windows, open up the Control Panel and look for something called Adobe Gamma.

Although these two links are about Espon, the first one will show you how to run the Gamma Wizard. The second one has some info on how to set up Elements 3.

ftp://ftp.epson.com.au/pub/epson/Drivers/ICMprofiles/EPSON%20RGB%20Print%20Guide_WIN.pdf

ftp://ftp.epson.com.au/pub/epson/TechTips/RGB%20E3%20WIN%20Workflow.pdf

If you want a true calibrator and profiler take a look at these...

http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/products_huey
http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/products_eye-one-display

Colin

[Wendy]

Hi ...

I'm not a Windows user but does Adobe Gamma work on LCD screens ... I thought I had read somewhere on the forum not to use it for them :confused:

Wendy

[Codebreaker]

Adobe Gamma can work with LCD screens but you just have to try it and see. You can always choose not to use it.

When I ran it on my daughters Samsung LCD display it made a right mess of it. I've tried it on mine and it's not too bad but in real life I use an Eye-One Display2.

The main difference between the Adobe Gamma and a true colourimeter (Eye One) is that the Adobe Gamma Wizard only calibrates your display. It will (hopefully) remove any colour bias and get your brightness/contrast approx. right - although I think the later is way off in most cases.

The colourimeter not only calibrates your display but also provides a profile because it actually measures the colours coming of your display. The profile is like the colour phrase book your PC needs to be able to convert the colour numbers your camera provides into something your PC and display can understand to put the correct colours on the screen.

Colin

[Wendy]

Thanks for the clarification Colin :)

Wendy

[mom to 4]

Sooooooooooooooo, does that mean I should just leave mine alone (since it's a LCD)?

[Ric Cisson]

Colleen, at the very least you should calibrate w/Adobe Gama. This procedure is somewhat subjective compared to the Color Management tools that are out there by Gregtag Macbeth, Colorvision, and Monaco. So, in as much as I would encourage you to utilize at minimum Adobe Gama, just be advised that by it's very nature it will only be as accurate as your eyes see it.

Fred, to answer your question, best advise I can give you is work with your lab, if they are willing to work with you. I am fortunate because I have the opportunity to work with many individuals like you over the counter. Keep in mind however, color management is a very demanding area of any photographers workflow. While PSE3/4 will not allow you to work directly with your labs ICC profile, Photoshop will. I recommend over and over to those that cannot afford Photoshop in addition to PSE3/4;

1. Calibrate your monitor and maintain.

2. Make your adjustments within PSE3/4.

3. Submit your files to your lab for processing, making sure no corrections are done at the lab; for those of you that are working with a lab with the Fuji Frontier System, of which I am qualified to speak, ask them to turn off Image Intelligence while printing.

4. Take the resultant "proofs" back home and compare to your monitor.

5. Make necessary adjustments to your "new" file and then return for final printing if you are so inclined.

One thing I will add to this discussion, having years experience in the lab with the Frontier System, things change within the lab as well; paper emulsion, chemistry temperature and turn over rate, exposure laser temperature. So again there are variables there as well. However, for the record most independent labs monitor and calibrate their systems frequently during the daily operational cycle. I cannot say the same is true for the Wal-Marts, Sams Clubs, Costcos, Walgreens, etc. that are out there with the same systems. Remember, as we know locally, some box stores pull personnel out of the cosmetic department to operate their systems when push comes to shove.

Bottom line is this, if you do not want to deal with the headache of Color Management, then leave it to your local independent lab. But regardless, any lab that wants your business should extend themselves in helping you reach your desired output. That is our philosophy and it works for us. Again I hope this works, and if I sounded like a salesman, please forgive me...I have been working in photofinishing most of my life. And for the record I do a lot of fine art printing at home, and from time to time, even I have problems getting the results I see on the monitor screen. ;) :)

[Linda559]

I have had this problem with Sams and now with Walgreens. My prints are coming out blue. I use a Nikon D70, and edit with PE4. I prefer to upload my images online and pick up in the stores. I can not find anywhere online to 'turn off' the color management, and I can't figure out whether the problem is with the settings on the D70 or in PE4.

I haven't used the store kiosk, is there a way to turn off the settings there? (the prints are cheaper if you upload them from the computer)

I print at home on my Epson and HP with no problem, but when I'm on the road, sometimes I just want a handful of snapshots, and for some dumb reason I can't get coordinated with the labs.

"talking" to these lab people doesn't seem to make much difference, it's always the customer doing something wrong and they can't seem to make any suggestions.

I guess what I'm wondering is...why can someone with a cheapo digital camera coming right off the beach have no problem, but me with all my expensive gear and photo editing program, come out with blue prints?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Linda

[Codebreaker]

Colleen....

As Ric suggests it's worth trying the Adobe Gamma but it can be a bit hit and miss.

One thing you might want to consider is sending a image directly to your print shop thats not been edited in Elements. This way you can be sure that your PC/Display/Elements is not changing the image incorrectly.

Be aware when checking your print against the screen that it's never going to match 100%.

Colin

[Ric Cisson]

Hi Linda,

Sorry to hear about your experience with Sam's and Walgreens...to be expected that they would point to you do something wrong. If you would like, go to my labs web site, www.sedonaphoto.net and upload your file to our Web Drop Box and mark it attention me. I will take a look at it and print it on our Frontier and see if I can help you. Just follow the instructions for uploading, fill out the applicable info and I will personally handle this. You may e-mail me direct if you wish, use subject: Nikon D70 Test.

[Foxhound]

Linda,

I rarely have ANY color problems in my prints because I follow a very simple process from start to finish. I do most of my printing at home on an Epson R200. When I send out for my prints I use Shutterfly.com

1. I calibrate with a colorimeter from www.colorvision.com
2. My incamera settings are always set to sRGB (Heaven forbid)
3. My workspace is always sRGB (gasp!)
4. My images are always saved with the sRGB profile (horror)

Neither my eyes, or my customers (key word here is customer) know the difference in color rendering in their prints.

Shutterfly reproduces the color accurately EVERYTIME I follow these very simple steps. My Epson reproduces the color accurately EVERYTIME also.

I realize this method flies in the face of experts but it's this method that has saved my bacon on many occasions with clients. That's the bottom line. The customer's satisfaction, and mine ;)

[Linda559]

Thanks Ric and John,

John- I'll double check my settings, and yes, it goes against everything to set all those things to sRGB, but I realize the Fuji Frontier machines use that profile.

Ric- I'll pull one or two of the images and send them to you. I'll do it later this evening (I'm on East Coast Time)

You'll probably find a mixture of color profiles! I believe the D70 was set to Adobe RGB, and the PE4 was saving to sRGB.

Linda

[Ric Cisson]

This is in response to Linda's issue. Before I begin, I wish to apologize to any and all who may fear that I am treading dangerously on marketing a business. Rest assure I understand your concerns and in advance I apologize.

I want to thank Linda for sending me a couple of files to take a look at and to attempt to print them for her to help her determine once and for all if she had a problem or the Sams or Walgreens she was utilizing had a problem.

I successfully downloaded her files through my labs web drop box, and opened them in both Photoshop Elements 4.0 and Photoshop CS2. Both files were 4x6 JPG @240 dpi. Both had been assigned color work space sRGB for the purpose of printing at the lab. Upon careful inspection of Linda's metadata I then uploaded to my Fuji Frontier 370 for printing. Upload was successful without any problems. I then ensured that the system Image Inteligence was turned off. That verified, I inspected the files in PIC (Photo Image Controller) to ensure that files were still acceptable for printing, that is that nothing had changed from one software (PSE/PS) to another PIC Ver 2.6.

I then selected the print option and let the system print the files. When they came out of the printer processor I smiled. Linda has no problem but her box stores do have a problem.

I can surmise a couple of scenerios that took place at the box stores. Before I begin, I want to assure all that I am not bashing box stores, they have their place, but they do not have the technical experience and therefore it is easy for them to tell you that you have a problem.

The first scenerio is the most likely of the two. It involves the daily calibration of the system including the routine paper calibration. If the calibration is not done correctly or shortcuts are taken and steps are skipped the system will not have been calibrated. That normally involves the (1)exposure laser in the printer processor and (2) the paper magazine calibration being outdated and therefore the system does not recognize the paper in the magazine. It could be either/or or both. Usually the system calibration is done at least once, normally at start up. However there is nothing to say that the paper and magazine have been calibrated/registered with the system unless your photo lab has an aggressive monitoring process throughout the day.

During the course of any given business day laser temperature, chemistry temperature, chemistry Ph (acidity), paper emulsion (eventually paper has to be loaded into the paper magazine when a magazine is emptied) etc. I could go on, but I think you get what I am referring to.

I have been in Photofinishing most of my life, now in my 50th year, this process is the same now as it was then, when film was King. I firmly believe the problem Linda encountered with her Box Stores was just as I had covered, maybe just one area, possibly more than one area was skipped. I have gone to our local Box Stores and I have meandered around the photo departments and watched the employees and their routines. Let me just say that given the shortcuts I have witnessed in these stores, none of these employees would ever make as a lab technician in my lab. Our system is monitored throughout the day. Paper is calibrated for color as much as it is recalibrated for Black and White. Control strips are run periodically throughout the day to keep tabs on the chemistry, all this for consistency. In the end we provide our customers consistent quality day in and day out.

There has been discussion about sRGB vs RGB, and the Frontier has been mentioned. Please note that Frontier ignores all embedded color profiles and assumes that your color work space is sRGB.

The Frontier system is fabulous. It is not demanding, all it requires to give anyone quality prints is Jpg or Tif file format, stated file in the output size desired @ 300dpi, and either RGB or sRGB color workspace... and all files should be flattened.

Best advise I can give anyone is you pay for what you get. But if you want quality prints...see your local experts.

Again, Linda thank you for the opportunity to assist you. Indeed it is always a pleasure to assist anyone desiring quality. Again if I sounded like a marketing agent to anyone, I do apologize.;) :)

[Ric Cisson]

Sorry I forgot to mention that the second scenerio that is just as probable is Chemistry contamination. Usually Color Developer in contaminated by Bleach-Fix when handling crossover racks or transport racks in and out of processing tanks. It can happen when daily maintenance is haphazard. Can happen when overflow vents become clogged with crystalized Bleach-Fix it will spillover into adjoining tanks usually Color Developer and Rinse tanks. :eek: ;) :)

[mom to 4]

Can you ask the people at your favorite processing place:

"Is there a place on my order form to turn off your automatic color correction..........."

I find if I tell them I am a complete idiot:D , chances are that they will believe me:eek: !

then they figure they are much smarter and are usually willing to do what I really want them to do, because they are showing me how smart they are......:D

[mom to 4]

Ric:

I just went back and read your longer post. I must say I do agree with you. If there is ever a print I REALLY want to look great or give to someone framed, I will certainly not take it over to costco. It will be well worth the extra $ to have a true professional handle it. I figure with all the money I have saved on simple stuff done at costco, I have saved well over the extra expense to have something great processed.

But acting like a complete idiot really helps with the counter help at the big box counter people:D !

[Ric Cisson]

Colleen,

I don't know that I would announce that I were an "idiot" because for the most part some of these box stores do feel empowered when you say something like that. However, I would try to work around them with their kiosk and then walk up to the counter and announce that you had placed your order through the kiosk and that you had manipulated the files and want them printed as is, make no adjustments. I have noticed, particularly at the local Wal-Mart, their behavior toward one tends to be more gracious. I am not sure that same works everywhere, but I sent a "decoy" into our local Wal-greens and it worked there too. Just for what it is worth, your images are important to you, therefore, no matter where you take them to be printed, they should be just as important to that staff. That is our philosophy on our staff and that is how we work with all customers, no matter their experience.

And Colleen for the record, we do have people come in announcing that they are "idiots". We turn that around immediately by saying, "no one is an idiot here...we are all learning continuously...just at different paces";)

[Linda559]

Ric- thanks for all the great information. I've been trying to understand this color profile stuff and hearing it stated in another way does help.

Colleen- I think when you submit your images at a kiosk, you still have to fill out an envelope for the lab. There is a box for instructions. Someone said in an earilier post to write that you don't want any corrections made.

My situation is that I like to upload my images from my computer, I can't find anyway to communicate those instructions to the lab. I think next time I travel, I'll just be sure to pack my printer. :)

Linda

[Ric Cisson]

Linda,

I don't know that I would go so far as to "pack my printer" each time I took a trip. Sometimes it is best to just take photos, leave only footprints, and return home to print or order prints through the labs that we are most comfortable with. I can post a web site that we refer all customers to while travelling to help them with their photographic (digital or film) adventures while traveling in the U.S.

A word of caution about the major on-line printing players, such as Shutterfly. For the most part they have their own central repositories for printing in key areas of the country. But in addition to those few, they also "share and distribute" workload to affliate labs around the world.:confused: Notice I said around the world. While a super majority of "work" is distributed to labs close to client, some is distributed to places in Mexico, Europe, India and Asia. Sometimes you just don't know what or who you are dealing with, particularly in matters of Quality Control.:rolleyes: I hate to burst anyones bubble about these services, but it really is like a "crap shoot" sometimes. :eek:

One service that monitors these affiliate labs is Fuji's Digital Camera Developing service. We use to be an affiliate member lab. I can provide that web-site as well, if anyone is interested. I also know that Kodak Gallery monitor their affliate labs.

I hope this "insiders'" input is helpful.;)

[mom to 4]

Linda:

I usually just upload my pictures through the computer and there is a box I check off that says "turn auto correction off". I TRY to always remember to check that box. If I am filling out the envelope, I write it in Large Letters across the envelope.

I find what Ric says very interesting. I wish it could all be done close to home! I would be interested in the other info......

[TonyW]

Ric: Thanks for all that information. I don't do a lot of printing but I am fortunate to live in a small town with a friendly photo shop with a Frontier machine and that's where all my business goes. It's so much easier to deal with real people who know what they're talking about and who have a vested interest in getting your prints to come out just right.

Tony