Printing woes and frustrations

[Hector]

My printing problems have been going for some time now and as a result I seldom even attempt any printing.

My environment is a follows: a Windows computer (Windows XP Pro), PSE 4, Epson Stylus Photo 2200. I don’t use this printer for anything but printing photographs. The monitor is a Dell (Mitsubishi?) LCD flat panel.

From the 1st time I tried printing from PSE 4 I noticed the prints from the printer are noticeably darker than what I see on my monitor My prints are pretty much straight prints with minor adjustments in highlights and shadows, nothing fancy. I was never able to get them right unless I made the images on the computer much lighter that what looked good. Only then did they look good as they came out of the printer. A friend came over with some monitor calibrating hardware/software and that didn't change anything. More recently I changed all the ink cartridges so they are fresh. Since I print so infrequently I usually print something every 3 or 4 weeks to make sure the jets don’t get clogged.

Yesterday I took some photos and made the same kinds of minor adjustments and tried printing them and now I am either getting very weird color shifts and one print came put with a very green cast. The prints coming out of the printer don't look anything like the images I see on the computer!

I have checked all that I know to check but obviously have missed something. This printer is touted to be a very good printer for photo printing and the pigments are supposed to be very long lasting. In spite of that I am about ready to throw it out the window.

In addition to the problems listed above I have been unable to make a 5 x 7 or 8 x 10 print that is borderless. I could use advice with that too.

Can any please let me know what to check to resolve this and if not can anyone recommend a replacement printer?

As you might guess I am very inexperienced with printing so please don't assume I have done the basic things correctly. What settings or adjustments need to be checked?

Thanks in advance.
Hector Caroselli
Seattle.

[chas3stix]

Hi Hector,
Sounds like your LCD needs to be calibrated. Also you need to use the right printer profile for the paper you are using. These are good places to start. If you don't have a monitor calibration system you can use Adobe Gamma that comes with PSE. You can find it in your control panel. Using it should put you in the ball park. Hope this helps.
Chas

[Codebreaker]

Hector.....

There are quite a number of points to consider when setting up Colour Management policies and Printer Settings.

It sounds like you've done the first thing and that's to calibrate and profile your display. However, when your friend did this with his hardware did he remove the Adobe Gamma Loader and leave the Gamma Loader that his S/W setup. You must not have both.

One of the key things in printing is not to have both Photoshop and the Printer trying to manage colours. This means getting the right settings in Elements and the Printer Driver. It is also important that you use the right paper and inks - in your case Epson brand.

Allthough the first link below is for Photoshop 7 and CS it will give you an indication of things to consider and setup. The second link, again is not for your specific printer but may help.

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_1.htm

ftp://ftp.epson.com.au/pub/epson/TechTips/RGB%20E3%20WIN%20Workflow.pdf

Colin

[Pauline]

Hector, I'll leaving the printer and calibrations questions for others, but for borderless you must select this option from your printer properties if it's capable of borderless printing.

[Codebreaker]

Some words about borderless printing....

Firstly, be aware of the image aspect ratio and that of your paper. Many digital cameras deliver an image which has a width to height ratio of 3:2. The paper sizes you listed, 5 x 7 and 10 x 8 are not in the same ratio so your print will not fit exactly unless you crop it to suit.

Also borderless printing on many printers still crops off some of the image due to the way the printer handles the paper and its borderless options.

Colin

[JonE]

Hector, I have had this problem with my Expon Styls Photo Rx600 too and it's very frustrating not to mention costly in ink and photo paper. One thing to try is in your printer options (in the print dialog box may also see as Print Properties) , find the button for "Advanced." ON that screen find the "Restore Defaults" button and click that. (You'll then have to check paper size, print quality, etc.) The printer has color controls of its own, you'll see the options there on the advanced screen. I think they are hard to use though. Mine now is set on "Color controls" but I don't mess with any of them. I tried the other settings but got very bad results. I hope this helps. The printer had extremely high capabilities - even better then some photo shop prints I've gotten - but the user interface is lacking and it is far from foolproof which is what us fools need. GL

[malcom]

I have just aquired an Epson RX640 (An updated version of the RX620). Have briefly played around with it and am getting the opposite to Hector. I find the prints are coming out lighter and less saturation. No problems with colour shift thus far..

I am surprised that the printer driver does not appear to have sRGB as an option or it could be the software has not properly installed on my old system as i did get the same message several times at different installation points saying that a file name (I kernel.exe) could not be copied to destination folder.

I'll have to see what happens when my new gear arrives.....

[Codebreaker]

Malcolm...

I suggest you take a look at the links I added in Post #3. It may go some way to answering your problems about colour matching.

You need to set both Elements and the Printer Driver correctly to get accurate results.

Colin

[road runner]

Malcolm,

You definitly should consider one of two calibration systems. These are the most reasonable.

Colorvision's Spyder2Express $89.00 http://www.colorvision.com/express

or

Pantone and GreatMacbeth have created "Huey" - an accurate system with software and calibration device for $89.00.
http://www.pantone.com/products/products.asp?idArea=2&showNav=121&idProduct=103

Either of these will make calibrating your screen quick and easy. Visit their sites to gain meaningful information. I am going to get the Huey, because its colorimiter compensates for incident light which could affect your visual impression.

Good luck!
roadrunner

[Hector]

Thank you all for your suggestons. I am continuing to muddle through this.

As stated initially, when I first started using this printer and the prints were coming out darker than the screen images a friend came with his monitor calibrating gizmo and software. That didn't seem to change anything at all.

My prints are so bad that I am not convinced this a monitor calibration issue. I will probably try it again but I am not feeling hopeful.

The other day I uninstalled the printer drivers etc. and reinstalled them. I am now considering doing the same thing with PSE.

If I ever resolve this I will let you all know and if anyone else figures it out please let me know. ;)

Thanks again everyone

[chas3stix]

Hector,
New drivers for printers come out frequently. Make sure drivers are the latest versions. Epson has a download page for this. Good luck.
Chas

[JonE]

Thank you Colin for those excellent references. The Epson Australia PDF presentation is terrific and actually does cover these specific type of printers, or at least the dialog boxes shown match up just right. Malcolm, you may be looking for a complicated problem when it might be an easier solution. Go through the Epson PDF file and follow those steps first. Something is likely fouling up your print color management and you should get all the settings straight before thinking there might be something wrong with Elements etc. Good luck.

[Carbone]

Digging a bit on the site Colin referenced, I found the same document for Mac OS X

ftp://ftp.epson.com.au/pub/epson/TechTips/RGB%20E3%20OSX%20Workflow.pdf

Ray

[malcom]

Thanks JonE. At the moment i have only been messing about with the new printer to check all is well with a new machine and I got lighter prints than when I was using my Epson photo 870.

At this point in time I don't have elements installed because it wont install on a windown 98SE system.

I will do as you suggest when I have my new comp in a week or two and with elements installed I can experiment in earnest and no doubt pop up with more questions..:)

[Hector]

Hi All,

Yesterday I uninstalled PSE and re-installed it. After doing so I printed a test on plain paper. The good news is the green is gone!! Today I will run other tests on photo paper and see how they look.

Thanks again to all who offered suggestions.

BTW, if anyone else needs to uninstall and re-install PSE BE SURE TO BACKUP YOUR CATALOG. I made 2 copies just to be safe.

Cheers.

[sandie]

Lets keep it simple. MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT CONTROLING COLOR MANAGEMENT IN BOTH THE PSE AND PRINTER. I would say in Photoshop to have Colormmangement ON and OFF in printer. I will let someone else explain where to find those controls. I can tell you that if you have the photoshop elements (PSE) and the printer both try to color manage you are going to get results similar to what you are describing.
IF you have a CALUMET PHOTOGRAPHIC around where you live, go in and have them show you how to shut off color management in the printer and only have it ON in PSE.

[sandie]

IN a forum just below yours this was posted for someone else but feel it will help you with epson printer. Here is the link
http://www.photoshopelementsuser.com...ead.php?t=9930

[JonE]

I can tell you all that when I followed the Epson (Australia) instructions to turn color management off on the Epson printer, I got much worse results (far too dark a print) than after I turned it back on. I am using RGB color control in PSE. So the idea to let PSE control colors and turn color controls off on the Epson printer is not foolproof. Even after I turned color controls on the printer back on, the print was still far from as good as what was shown on the monitor. I was only printing on plain paper (and that was set right), but still the print should have been much better.

[Codebreaker]

Displays......

One of the key, must do, absolutes in using Photoshop is that your screen must be calibrated and profiled. Unless this is done correctly its the equivalent of manualy focusing your camera without wearing your eye glasses - everything looks good in the viewfinder but all the images come out blurred.

There is a distinction between calibration (which the Adobe Gamma Wizard can only do) and Profiling ( which is what you do with something like an Eye One or Spyder). Be also aware that the Adobe Gamma Wizard is not ideally suited for LCD screens. It can have some success but also distastrous results.

Calibrating with Adobe Gamma Wizard, will at best remove any colour bias and may (only may) get your Brightness/Constrast setup - although I have doubts about how affective this is. Typically on most screens I come across users have the contrast setting at 100% which is good but also the brightness set to 100%. In most cases it needs to be between 50-75%.

This is one example of how wrong display settings can affect your prints. Your screen brightness is too high. You edit the image reducing brightness and contrast. The corresponding print comes out dark and flat.

Profiling is the next key step. Your display/PC cannot render the same colour range as your camera ( or your printer). Colour Management has to perform the conversion of your camera colours to your screen colours in a way that makes them appear accurate. To do this Photoshop needs a Monitor Profile which is like a phrase book that converts the colour language of your camera to the display language.

If you have calibrated with Adobe Gamma and Profiled with an Eye One or Spyder it is vitally important that you make sure the Adobe Gamma Loader is not running at boot up time. If it is you'll get odd results as the Eye One/Spyder S/w is also running at boot time and you'll have both trying to setup the display profile.


Printers.....

As someone has already pointed out you must not have both Photoshop and the Printer Driver trying to manage colours. Colour Management is a thorny subject with as many opinions as there are colours but this is my opinion that works very well for me.

1. Let Photoshop manage the colours when printing and turn off the colour management in your Printer Driver.

2. As a starting point Print from the Editor not Organiser.

3. In Print check the More Options box options box.

4. In the box labled Printer Profile choose something that describes the Paper you are using if possible. (Usually available for Epson or if you've bought a special profile). If not specific paper profile use sRGB IEC 61966-2.1

5. For Rendering Intent try either Perceptual or Relative Colourimetric. Do not use Saturation or Absolute Colourimetric.

6. In your Printer Driver turn off your Colour Management. How you do this differs according to the printer - some do not even allow this. Usually it means unchecking a box labled ICM but on some Epsons this means checking ICM and then unchecking something called NCA ( No Colour Adjust)

7. Ensure your Printer Driver is set to use the correct Paper Type. Paper is equally important in rendering the correct colours. Printing on plain paper that you would use in a photo copier is not good. The paper coating and colour (white) is used with the inks to get the range of colours because all your printer can do is either place a coloured dot or not. So an intermediate colour for which you do not have a specific cartridge is formed by having a mixture of dots and white space - just like adding white to a coloured paint.

Plan B....

If your printer cannot turn off colour management then try using as a Printer Profile - Printer Colour Management (not Same as Source) which is not available in the Organiser.

Judging prints.....

You need to let your prints dry properly. This can take between 2-3 hrs and 24hrs.

Print colours can vary depending upon what light you view them in. Don't forget your display is actually shining light out at you. Your prints are reflecting light.

Finally accept the fact that a 100% match is impossible. Your camer/display/printer all have different colour ranges and some colours are just not possible to reporduce 100% accurately.

Once you have a formula that works for you - write it down:)

Colin

[chas3stix]

Colin,
Very well put. Tim Grey has authored a book named Color Confidence. It's chock -full of good information about color management.
Chas

[JonE]

I've attempted the Adobe calibrate wizard a few times and each time gave up because it's instructions are incomprehensible and it asks you for information that cannot be located like some input or output numbers for the monitor (I don't recall the exact name) that are neither in the manual nor anywhere on the monitor or the mfgr's web site. Any other suggestions?

[Codebreaker]

JonE....

Did the information in the Epson links not provide you with the details needed to run the Wizard?

Colin

[JonE]

No sorry mate, the only Epson link I see it to that PDF file which has great info on printer settings, however on calibration it just says it should be done preferably using instrumentation or if not some software that I don't have. I have the Adobe wizard but like I said it's undoable by me - and people in my office look to me as the techie. :confused:

[Codebreaker]

JonE....

Take a look at this link. The first section of the PDF is how to use the Wizard. I can't say if it will answer all your questions but its a start.

ftp://ftp.epson.com.au/pub/epson/Drivers/ICMprofiles/EPSON%20RGB%20Print%20Guide_WIN.pdf

Here's another link that may also help

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps8_colour/ps8_2.htm

Colin

[JonE]

Thanks, these are quite helpful. Here's the first place where the directions get incomprehensible. "Move the sliders until the centre boxes blend in with the outer lines (squinting makes this process easier)." First of all, the term "outer lines" is not clear but I presume this refers to the series of horizontal lines (these are really the "adjacent lines" to me, not the outer lines of the box, but anyway...). The lines are black and the intermingled colors are (for example) red. The inner box is in this case red, and can be adjusted from dark red to very bright red. Does it mean for the inner red to blend in with the "outer" red in between the black lines? If so why are the black lines are there, and why does it say to blend with the "lines"?? Or does it mean to blend in to the black lines? If so, I don't ever see that red "blends in" with black - they always look distinct to me. If you could help explain how this is supposed to work, then I would be most appreciative and could continue to my next point of confusion! :confused:

[JonE]

I should go back and say the initial instruction on contrast is clear (now set to 100), but the setting on brightness is not. The Epson instructions and those of Adobe are rather different, but even following Epson it says to make the center just noticeable - it is really just noticeable at the very lowers (0) and I'm sure that's not right - plus the Adobe instructions say to keep the outer box bright white and at 0 the outer box is tending toward purplish. To keep the outer box bright white but make the center as dark or less noticeable as possible gets me to about 65.

[JonE]

Another question - afte the calibration, am I supposed to leave the brightness and contrast settings where they were set for this process? The screen now looks extremely bright and I thought one of the points was to tone down the screen (at least without color controls "on" on the printer, the prints come out darker than the screen). Thanks again.

[Codebreaker]

JonE.....

When you see the Red, Green and Blue boxes, the alternate Red/Black lines (etc) produce a different red than the 'solid' inner box. By squinting - and this is better at a distance - the Red/Black portion blurs enough to appear a solid Red. The idea is then to get the inner and outer portions to match. The inner changes with the slider, the outer is the reference.

What you are doing here is balancing the Red, Green and Blue so there is no bias to one or the other.

The Brightness/Contrast adjustments I've found less than ideal on LCD screens and on some are disatrous. Contrast should be at 100%. If you've achieved a Brightness of about 65% I'd say you are in the right area.

If these settings are correct then they have to be left like that all the time. If you think they are too bright then maybe something is not right still. There is another check you can do within Elements to see if your settings are about right.

1. Create a new document the same pixel dimensions as your screen or bigger.
2. Fill it with Black and zoom in so that fills the whole of your screen. Turn off all Palettes or shrink the Palette Bin
3. Use the Rectangular Marquee Tool to draw a square approx 3" x 3" in the middle of the screen. Press Ctrl + H to hide the marquee.
4. Press Ctrl + L to get the Levels pop up Window. Move this away from the centre square.
5. Highlight the 0 in the Output Levels box
6. Use the keyboard Up Arrow to slowly increment this number.
7. As you do #6 you'll see the center area get lighter - it should become noticeable about 5 or 6.

Then try the same but this time fill with White and highlight the number 255 in the Output Levels box. Use the Down Arrow to decrease the number. The centre square should become darker after 2-3 steps.

Let us know the results. This as you can see is similar to the Gamma Wizard but on a bigger scale.

BTW: This is why an investment in a true colourimeter is better.

Colin

[JonE]

Thanks Colin. I tried both of those tests and the areas just become visible at the points you mentioned. I will work on the wizard more with your suggestions. Thanks again.