viewing images - program has too much saturation and reds

[ME100FINN]

Hi, i am new to the forum and hope I can get some answers.

I use Elements 4 mostly for the Organizer, but find the Editor very helpful too. I dont have another means of editing photos (JPG). I do have a Canon 20D that comes with the EOS Viewer that edits raw images, as well as DPP.

My problem: Elements adds reds and saturation to all my images! I just noticed when I click the slider bar and resize the thumbnails, the images lose the saturation/reds. When I let go of the slider button, they come back again!

I wondered how I can edit an image properly and get print results that I want with colors like this. My Color Setting is for Computer Screens to keep within the sRGB (I have sRGB selected on my camera too). So, I did a little test this afternoon....

using this image and another gym shot (not shown)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1632/img0853edited1filtered4xi.jpg

I opened both CR2 files and saved as JPG in original size, maximum quality on a compact flash. I printed them directly to my new Epson PictureMate. The colors? Less saturated and closer to the real environment. So was it the transfer to a JPG that gave "accurate" colors? Or was it the Epson?

I opened both CR2 files and printed directly to my Canon i9900. The images were saturated/red like they appeared on screen. Again, maybe they need to be read as JPG? Well, I imported the CR2 to JPG files from the compact flash (from step above) and imported into Elements. They appear the same saturation/red and the CR2 files.

Any ideas? This is clearly not a monitor problem. How can I get Elements to give me a more accurate reading of the files? I know there are so many factors -- from the camera, to computer, to printer. I really want to use Elements for RAW, but it is slow. I prefer to use EOS Viewer (much faster) but the results back in Elements are all screwed up then!!

HELP??!!!!

Beatrice

[ME100FINN]

I scanned all the images together that I printed. The TOP two photos are the CR2 exported as JPG and printed on Epson. These appear closer to real time setting.

The bottom two are CR2 printed directly to the Canon. These images appear as they are on screen--stronger saturation and reds.

I *KNOW* that printers will give different results. That is not the issue here that I am trying to address. I want my images to APPEAR like the Epson results, but the show as Canon results. Then of course I have to correct the Canon output (probably change profiles on it).

Click for larger image:
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/2189/scan8no.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan8no.jpg)

[ME100FINN]

I discovered something too...maybe end up answering my own questions eventually if someone else doesnt! LOL....

I opened EOS Viewer Utility and opened the CR2 file, then selected "Transfer to editing program". It saved a JPG of the image and I sent it to Elements Editor. It auto added it into the Organizer. The images appears just like it did in EOS Viewer!! The original CR2 image was first imported into Elements using the card reader. SO--conclusion: Elements reads the image different based on how it is imported into the program!!!!! Now, which way do I use to get the results I want???

[Carbone]

Hello and welcome to the Forums, Beatrice!

Your first test, you printed from CR2 (a.k.a RAW) to the printer, but you then converted them to JPEG for the second printer. You should have printed both from the same source, to make sure nothing gets in the way.

When you print from a printer directly, you have a couple of things to set. For Canon, you need to tell it if you want to enhance the images or not (same thing for the Epson PictureMate, btw). If you feel the printouts from the Canon are too red, disable Exif printing and make sure no enhancements are on.

That said.. what is your current Elements colour management setting? Have you tried to set it to Ignore Camera Data (Exif) ? In the preferences, under Saving Files, bottom of the dialog.

Ray

[Juergen D]

Beatrice,
Welcome to the forums!

Color management is a complicated issue (for me, at least), so I really don't have any answer for you, just some thoughts and observations.
I loaded your picture from the first post into Elements (3) and checked for a colorcast. I don't think there is one. I don't know what the *right* color is, it’s very much in the eye of the beholder. If you feel the colors are over saturated, you certainly can adjust for that.
I believe the colors you see in Elements are the colors as taken by the camera. I am a bit confused by your workflow and I don't know what happens when converting from RAW to Jpeg (or if you are using the embedded Jpeg). I would suggest using one kind of workflow (e.g. open the RAW files in Elements with the RAW plugin) and stay with it, then adjust your images to your taste and go from there. If all images appear to be too red, you may want to change the White Balance in your camera in accordance with the ambient light.
My two cents.

Juergen

[Carbone]

Also, the conversion could tag your image with AdobeRGB colour profile, which boost the saturation a lot compared to sRGB.

Ray

[ME100FINN]

Hello and welcome to the Forums, Beatrice!
Thanks!
Your first test, you printed from CR2 (a.k.a RAW) to the printer, but you then converted them to JPEG for the second printer. You should have printed both from the same source, to make sure nothing gets in the way. Yeah, I realized that after. Basically I tried the Epson first because it just arrived today!! It only reads jpg so I had to convert the raw first and copy to the compact flash.

When you print from a printer directly, you have a couple of things to set. For Canon, you need to tell it if you want to enhance the images or not (same thing for the Epson PictureMate, btw). If you feel the printouts from the Canon are too red, disable Exif printing and make sure no enhancements are on. How do I tell the Canon i9900 not to enhance the images? The printer was at default for Pro paper. I didnt think it added any enhancement. I selected the raw image and then print. I guess the software or the printer has to convert this somehow to print it, no?

That said.. what is your current Elements colour management setting? Have you tried to set it to Ignore Camera Data (Exif) ? In the preferences, under Saving Files, bottom of the dialog. From EDIT, COLOR SETTINGS, I have "Always Optimize..." selected to force sRGB which corresponds to my Canon 20D sRGB setting (not Adobe). Interestingly, the raw images state this in the metadata: "color profile: untagged RGB" and "color mode: RGB". I see your reference to saving files--the ICC profile box. Could that be it? Going back to the thought that a raw file has be converted somehow into jpg before it is printed? If so, how does Elements allow me to select a raw file and print it?

Ray

My replies in bold italics above.
Beatrice

[ME100FINN]

Beatrice,
Welcome to the forums!

Color management is a complicated issue (for me, at least), ME TOO!!so I really don't have any answer for you, just some thoughts and observations.

I loaded your picture from the first post into Elements (3) and checked for a colorcast. I don't think there is one. I don't know what the *right* color is, it’s very much in the eye of the beholder. If you feel the colors are over saturated, you certainly can adjust for that.
I believe the colors you see in Elements are the colors as taken by the camera. Yes, it is very close, but it is off -- I see it when I resize the thumbnails. If I am holding the slider down the image changes color to what is "true" and when I let go, it add more saturation and reds. That is how the image then prints. I am a bit confused by your workflow and I don't know what happens when converting from RAW to Jpeg (or if you are using the embedded Jpeg). The examples I gave are not my normal workflow--it just happened this way because I wanted to test my new Epson printer and had to save the raw to jpg to use it. I would suggest using one kind of workflow (e.g. open the RAW files in Elements with the RAW plugin) and stay with it, then adjust your images to your taste and go from there. If all images appear to be too red, you may want to change the White Balance in your camera in accordance with the ambient light. That has been my workflow and I have had a bit of consistency with that. Recently i have had larger amounts of raw files to adjust and Elements is cumbersome to do batch processing. So I have tried to use the other programs that came with the camera with success--but Elements reads them completely different.
My two cents.

Juergen

Just some more thoughts in bold italic above! ;) Thanks!

[ME100FINN]

Also, the conversion could tag your image with AdobeRGB colour profile, which boost the saturation a lot compared to sRGB.
Ray

How would it be doing this? As in my reply above I said the raw metadata stated it as RGB .. not specifically sRGB, but it doesnt state Adobe RGB either. :confused:

I am wondering if I just copy the images from the compact flash to my picutres folder...THEN let Elements Organizer find the new images and add them (from my watched folders of course)... see what happens then. i will have to take some more pictures and find out.... import with Elements as I normally do vs copy/import from watched folder. Then I can compare how they are read and stored.

That will have to wait til tomorrow... 130am here...

Thanks for all the help!!
Beatrice
--owns Sony F828, Canon 20D, four Canon lenses, 420ex flash; HP952c, Canon i9900, Epson PictureMate Deluxe

[ME100FINN]

Well, I did some color management and I seem to be on track now. I found some links to help me out. I played with my monitor settings, Adobe Gamma, and checked that all my pc/printers were all using sRGB profiles. I hope to stick with Elements only so I can continue to get consistent results. Once I try to use any other program I get minor to major differences--it is frustrating. I'd love to use RawShooterElements and others, but... life should be easier with one.

[Carbone]

Ok, reading your post, I realized that an i9900 doesn't have the same level of control say a Pixma iP6000D has (like the one I have).

If you print your images directly from the camera, using PictBridge, you still have the choice to enhance or not the picture. If you print from Easy Photo Print, you can turn off Exif Print.

On the other hand, if you're always printing from Elements (the Editor, not the Organizer), things should always be identical, whether the source is RAW or Jpeg. I don't have any other ideas at this time.. sorry :(

Ray