Downgrade?

[mtamble]

I just purchased PSE4, but after finding out that most of the helpful tools and extras that worked in PSE3 don't work in PSE4, I was wondering if it is worth downgrading to PSE3?

Is there nothing we can do about this lack of functionality? Why would adobe do this? :(

~Mat

[Wendy]

Hi Mat ...

You can get some of the tools to work in PSE4 but not things like Curves, Colour Mixer etc ...

Here is a link to a thread that will give you some more information on which ones will work and which won't:

http://www.photoshopelementsuser.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4963

Wendy

[Carbone]

Mat,

Adobe probably made changes because those extra tools are found in full Photoshop, and as a result, they probably missed sales of the more expensive product.

There are only a few new tools in PSE4 (Skin tones and magic selector) and both have got mixed reviews. So, if you have PSE3, you might want to stick with it.

Ray

[Chuck S.]

Ray, you're right about the new tools you cite. I've tried them both and have been very disappointed that they didn't live up to their hype.

PSE4 may be the first version of Photoshop or Elements that I've abandoned and removed....

:mad:

Chuck

[Carbone]

Well, independent critics have mostly been cold or lukewarm about the product. Most users said they would not upgrade if they already had PSE3. Now, if one has PSE2 or PSE1, then yes, the upgrade makes sense.

Personally, from PSE3, I don't feel I'm missing a great deal not having access to PSE4 (natively) on a Mac.

Ray

[NMarti]

I have both versions and I do 90% of my work with 3 because I use a lot of the things that no longer work in 4. I have used both the skin tone and extractor and both work but not great. The extractor is only marginally better than the magic eraser unless you have a really "clean" image to work with - say something on a solid color background. I will stick with 3 for most everything I do. Downgrade as in remove 4 if you already have it installed - probably not. It's worth having the features available to you unless you don't have the disk space available.

[Grant]

*Note* a big caveat here. I don't use Organizer or even like it as I have another photo cataloging program that I am in love with. So all that follows is about the editor.

I am a huge fan of Elements and have had every version. If you're new to Elements I suspect you can do far worse than buy Elements 4, but given the choice I would recommend Elements 3. While PE 4 has a few extra tools and it is a bit less buggie you will loose out on lots of power add-ons. This may not effect the novice but it sure is unwelcomed by the power user. If you have any version of Elements should you up grade? I thing you would get a better bang for your buck if you were to get a different piece of soft, or put your money in a jar toward a full version of Photoshop. For my part I bought a copy of PaintShop Pro X and while this doesn't replace Elements it sure give me a whole new box of graphic tools.

Oh I do have a copy of Elements 4, sealed and unopened, and a well used version of CS.

[mtamble]

So you guys are saying that besides for those two minor tools (the magic extractor and skin tone) PSE3 and PSE4 are essential the same thing? If that's the case, then I feel slightly ripped off because it seems like PSE3 is the stronger photo-editing program because of its ability to use the extras that PSE4 won't use. I mean, the skin tone thing is pretty neat, when it works, and the magic extractor rarely works properly......so I don't think I would be missing out on much there as opposed to not being able to install these awesome tools that everyone else with PSE3 has.

I wonder if I can get a refund on PSE4 and get a copy of PSE3 instead? Would you guys recommend this?

Thanks,

~Mat

[MikeH]

Mat,

I guess you are going to get various personal views here...

My view is that whether you should go with PSE4 or PSE3 depends on what you are using the software for and which features are important to you. I have both PSE3 and PSE4 and it took me a while to decide whether it was worth upgrading. There are more than two new Editor tools in PSE4 over PSE3... There is a pretty fair review of PSE4 over PSE3 and details of the new features here http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/pixelbased/gr/pselements.htm

Plug-ins and add-ins aside, there is no doubt that I would stay with PSE4 - it has more features and is more stable. Some add-ins do work in PSE4, but the two I would miss most (if I didn't have PSE3 to fall back on) would be Curves and the Channel Mixer. You need to decide how much you would use functions like these...

Mike

[Chuck S.]

For my part I bought a copy of PaintShop Pro X and while this doesn't replace Elements it sure give me a whole new box of graphic tools.

Grant, Paint Shop Pro X is being advertised at Fry's for $29.99 US after rebates. Sounds like a fairly inexpensive addition to the toolbox...

Like Grant, I've had all four versions of Elements, so I'm not about to defect to the dark side. However, I'd really like Adobe to consider the needs of the 'middle class' of photo editing enthusiasts and add curves and channel mixer capability to future versions of Elements. There are whole books written on the importance of Curves; even OEM scanning software recognizes this as a basic tool.

Enough ranting...Elements is still my editor of choice, even if I do have to use multiple versions to get the desired result!

Chuck

[Wendy]

Chuck ...

I still like PSE2 the best ... :)


Wendy

[Chuck S.]

Wendy, me too. Now if I could only find a way to move the Shadows and Highlights tool and the Photo Filters back into the PSE2 GUI....

:)

[Wendy]

Chuck ...

If ever you find a way then just let me know :) :)

Although ... I don't often use Shadow & Highlights ...!


Wendy

[Chuck S.]

Wendy, re shadows and highlights: interesting that you don't use the function that often. I take a lot of contrasty outdoor photos, and it's been a real lifesaver on many occasions. In the PSE2 days, I used a 'contrast mask' that involved several steps and wasn't nearly as effective as S&H. The only recommendation I'd make to Adobe re S&H: make it into an Adjustment Layer! (perhaps they've done that in CS2, but I haven't opened my box yet...)

Chuck

p.s. Maybe the clouds and rain of the UK reduce the number of high-contrast photo opps!

:D

[Wendy]

Hi Chuck ...

It isn't an adjustment layer in CS2 either ... but there are a lot more controls :)

You are probably right about the high contrast photos ... :)


Wendy

[Carbone]

Maybe the upcoming Mac version will get a downgraded GUI... ??? PSE2, that was the best!

Ray

[Chuck S.]

It isn't an adjustment layer in CS2 either ... but there are a lot more controls

Wendy, you weren't kidding! (Finally loaded CS2 for a sneak preview)

When I look at the menus of CS2, I realize just how many additional features there are for the 'senior program.' It makes it seem all the more petty that Adobe would deny Elements users the ability to use curves and channel mixer....mere crumbs off the table.

:mad:

Chuck

[Wendy]

Chuck ...

... My thoughts exactly !! :)

Wendy

[Carbone]

Chuck,

Now you understand why it's very irritating to hear "don't buy full Photoshop, the only difference is with CMYK and colour seperation"... yeah, sure... ;)

Ray

[Wendy]

I think that people often do a comparison of Photoshop and Elements and don't see a vast number of differences ... what they don't realise is that with Photoshop most features have such a wealth of flexibility that isn't available in Elements.


Wendy

[Pauline]

With the vast collection of pscs books I am collecting, I would really have to question any upgrade I do, and wonder if I'm going to upgrade if it wouldn't be better to just go for the full version. That definitely wouldn't be for some time though until I'm completely comfortable with elements and feel the need. For now there is plenty to keep me busy and I don't want to be overwhelmed.

[Chuck S.]

Pauline, once in a blue moon, Adobe have offered registered users of Elements an opportunity to buy full Photoshop for $299 US. That's how I originally acquired PS7; the upgrades (to CS then CS2) thereafter are $150-$170 each. In hindsight, I should have skipped CS and waited for CS2, but who knew...?

Chuck

[Pauline]

Chuck it's just a never ending cycle isn't it!! :eek:

[Chuck S.]

Pauline, you're right....

I will seek help from PS-aholics Anonymous...

I can beat this addiction....

;)

[Wendy]

Chuck ..

Oh don't do theat ... they just encourage you to buy more things :)


Wendy

[NMarti]

Chuck - I know what you mean - I'm fully addicted as well :eek:

[bshamilton]

Would it be OK to install 3 after 4?
PSE4 was my first foray into Elements, but I'd like to have curves, to go along with levels.
Does 3 have both? Does one have to bounce back and forth or will 3 provide most of what I need, relative to only knowing 4 so far?
And, I, too, like shadows and highlights; I do mostly landscapes and use it a lot!

I wish I'd read these 3 vs 4 threads before buying 4!!:mad:

Thanks,
Barry

[Wendy]

Hi Barry ...

Yes it is fine to install PSE3 after you have PSE4 installed ... no problems with that. PSE3 doesn't have curves etc BUT there are free addons (Like Grant's tools) that allow you to access these features.

I'll have to pass on the second question as there isn't yet a version of PSE4 for Macs :)


Wendy

[Chuck S.]

Barry, out of the box, PSE4 has most of the capabilities of PSE3 and a few more of its own - but the emphasis is on 'out of the box'. Many of us have customized PSE3 with the free add-ons from Grant, and that's like supercharging a VW Rabbit and taking it screaming down the Autobahn (my apologies to anyone who owns a Rabbit and is offended by my analogy...). Regrettably, some of the most important add-ons (Curves and Channel Mixer) cannot penetrate PSE4's wall and so we're back to driving 55 in the right lane again...

:)

Chuck

[bshamilton]

Thanks, Wendy, and Chuck, excellent analogy.
Something to think about.

Barry

[Wendy]

Hi Barry ...

Here is a link to Grant's tools

http://www.cavesofice.org/~grant/Challenge/Tools/index.html

take a look at the section on how to use the tools ... that will give you some idea of the extra capabilities :)

Wendy

[virgo1]

Chuck,
I got that offer last spring for CS2 and I took it. No regrets. I have a lot to learn, but don't we all. The tools, wow. I'm taking it slow, one step at a time. Chuck... I'm calling myself a Photoshopping Phool. :D
Eva ;)

[Chuck S.]

Eva, it's funny....I still like using Elements even though I know that I have full PS available. The relative simplicity and the presence of most of the critical tools (at least through PSE 3) have worked for me in 99% of the cases.

Chuck

[Wendy]

Chuck ...

I think that it is just what you get used to ... most of the Photoshop features can be used in the same way as the Elements ones. You don't need to dig deeper into them and use the more advances parts ... :)

Wendy

[Richard Lynch]

"Regrettably, some of the most important add-ons (Curves and Channel Mixer) cannot penetrate PSE4's wall and so we're back to driving 55 in the right lane again..."

Regretably this information is being passed around quite a lot, and it isn't quite true. I have solutions for using Channel Mixer, Color Balance, Guides, and a host of other things I have seen people saying are not in Elements 4. Just because the interface doesn't handle it the same way, doesn't mean you can't do it. I was the one who originally came out with the solutions, and no one asks me...

What do you want in Elements 4? It is likely I have already put it there: thebookdoc@aol.com

[Carbone]

Richard,

Your post implies it's almost always been the case, that is, from day 1, you knew how to access the hidden features of PSE4 and made the solution widely available and that we, the users, are ignoring you. If my memory is correct, I don't believe even your tools, all of them, worked with PSE4 from day 1. But I could be wrong, being a Photoshop user, I never really looked closely at your tools.

On October the 13th, 2005, however, you clearly said that there are workarounds, and that you'd make them available within two months. This would imply that your own tools didn't work...

http://www.photoshopelementsuser.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30434#post30434

So, forget us mere mortals for saying that Channel Mixer and Curves and other tools don't work because, until a way exists and is made available to the general public to bring back the same functionality in the same manner we had, this fact still holds true.

Ray

[bshamilton]

It seems extremely goofy to have to go through a bunch of machinations to "add on" something to get something else to work, or become available. If this add on is free, why weren't they in the software to begin with??? If they were popular in PSE3, why would Adobe remove and/or block them in 4? I've heard the standard answers but it makes no sense. All it seems to do is make people, like me who's still trying to learn, angry and frustrated with Adobe and having to wait for a "fix" to be available in April.:mad:
Sorry, I'm not a computer expert, and all the stuff you have to do to get to use curves, without spending $700 for CS2, sometimes gets me to where I just have to vent a little!

[Norm F]

Hi Barry,

Most of the add-ons for PSE3 are provided by third parties. In other words Adobe builds the core software as they plan to market it and others write additional stuff for it without any input from Adobe and likely, much to their chagrin. You can probably understand that Adobe is trying to market two software packages to two target markets. They can't include all of the tools included in Photoshop CS at an Elements price.

Having said that, I'm sure you will see a whole new generation of third party add-ons developed for PSE 4. It's just going to take a little time.

[Carbone]

Barry,

Adobe removed easy access to those tools most probably because they helped canibalize sales of the big product, Photoshop CS.

The add-ons only expose what's hidden. At least, they used to. Now, I don't know the new ways Richard has found to make them available. And we've not yet had a confirmation whether the new ways are actually pre-designed curves settings or the actual curves dialog box being brought back. Curves are only one example.

Ray

[Chuck S.]

Ray, I've created a couple 'curves' replacements as gradients. When used as part of a Gradient Map Adjustment layer in Luminosity mode, they do allow shifting of tones to produce an S-curve. Not as effective as real Curves, but not bad!

:)

Chuck

[Wendy]

Hi Barry ...

Part of the answer is that Adobe didn't develop Elements from scratch they took its big brother Photoshop as a starting point and blocked access to large parts of it. They did that because they needed to keep a fair difference between the two programs.

.. the add ons like Grant's tools use a "backdoor" series of actions to access some of the parts that Adobe blocked ... Adobe were aware of this access and it continued from PSE2 into PSE3 but when they developed PSE4 they block quite a large part of it.

In some ways I can't really blame them ... but it is a shame :(

Wendy

[Carbone]

Chuck,

That's great!!!

Ray

[karen donnybrook]

Just noticed Wendy has gone from a "senior" to an "enlightened elder"!!

[Carbone]

Elder... doesn't it mean someone very old.. ?!?!? Not sure this suits Wendy well.. :(

Ray

[karen donnybrook]

Not necessarily Ray, it also means senior member of the tribe who has authority, therefore somebody we would go to for help and advice. I think it is very suitable for Wendy - we all look to her for guidance and help, don't we?

[Carbone]

Ok... in the same sense I'm a senior at 38.. :D

lol !!

Thanks Karen, another good lesson !

Ray

[kayser]

Just saw Karen's post about Wendy's new status- pretty cool!

[Wendy]

Hi there ...

I wondered how long it would be before someone noticed :) :) ... it didn't take long :)


Wendy

[willpresley]

I for one am glad to see a Distinction for having posted so many times on the forum. Congratulations on that distinction Wendy.

[Wendy]

Why thank you very much Will :)


Wendy

[Carbone]

Does this mean I'm gonna get called Banana Pills Boy or Mac Maniac.. ?
:D :D :D

Ray

[Wendy]

Ray ...

Only when you get to 10,000 messages :) :)


Wendy

[Carbone]

At present rate, it'll take years.. I'll probably have switched to Cucumber Pills by then.. :)

(but still using Mac.. !!)

Ray

[Richard Lynch]

Richard, Your post implies it's almost always been the case, that is, from day 1, you knew how to access the hidden features of PSE4 and made the solution widely available and that we, the users, are ignoring you. If my memory is correct, I don't believe even your tools, all of them, worked with PSE4 from day 1.
Ray, that Adobe changes the program from version to version as radiacally as they do is a little surprising...or not, considering it is a relatively new application, and that their understanding of how best to market that changes with experience. However, that old solutions don't work any more is not surprising considering the changes in the program. That could be likened to the idea that the parts for a 69 ford model will likely not fit the same model in 79--or now. Being able to project Adobe's changes and to build to that end would require a crystal ball -- and even then it may be difficult to implement if the changes are sweeping.

In any case, I meant to inform that there are indeed work-arounds to tools in elements, which have become known as Grant's Tools, though I introduced them 2 years earlier. I have updated the tools to work with Elements 4, and am currently testing/debugging. The new tools will be available by the end of the month, and the full set will have some 100+ tools. A free tool set will be available not long after, also before the end of the month.

Just because Grant's tools don't work, doesn't mean it is the end of the line.

[Chuck S.]

Thanks for the update, Richard, especially the details listed in the other thread.

[Norm F]

Earthbound Light also has a "light effects" package under development for PSE4 which includes curves, channel mixer, layer mask and selective color. Before you know it, version 4 will have it all.

I'll just have to learn what they do and how they work.