Green screen - help! Please....

[studmuffin]

Thanks for looking at this:

Imagine you are shooting someone against a green screen. You need a full length shot but because of the size of room your shooting in you can't pull back far enough.

So what if you flipped the camera through 180 and shot vertically? You'd have more than enough space then to grab a full length shot against the green screen. Hope that makes sense.

Question is, in PE4, is it possible to rotate the picture back so that the subject is in the middle of the screen? If so can anyone tell me how please?

Also, it would then be necessary to fill up the blank space on either side of the image with a fake green screen. I suspect that's pretty straitfoward, but again if anyone can clue me in I'd be grateful.

I'm only a part time user of PE, so please be gentle with me if these are dumb questions!

Many thanks

[frank abramonte]

studmuffin, yes. Image rotate 90 degrees clockwise or counter clockwise.
This won't give you any extra blank space.
If you need extra space then you can create a new document to the size you wish and fill it with a matching green. Once you've done this select the original image and either drag it onto the new document of copy and paste it.

If you have blank spaces to fill:
Select the green color with the eye dropper.
Then select the blank background by clicking on the blank background with the magic wand.
Once selected pour in the green color with the paint bucket or choose a brush and paint it in.


If you need additional info post back.

[studmuffin]

Hi there Frank and thanks for the speedy reply - very much appreciated.

I tried your suggestion, and felt a bit foolish since a quick scout around the menus would have revealed that simple command.

So having rotated my image 90 degrees I'm noew left with an image that is crpped top and bottom. Could you please tell me how to resize the image so that I show the entire frame?

I guess I wasn't making myself clear regarding the blank space. What I meant was because the aspect ratio is wider than it is taller, my rotated green screen image will have black on either side where the picture would normally be. But I think your solution will work, create a blank document to place behind it.

Thanks so much and again plaese forgive my rather elementary questions.

[frank abramonte]

studmuffin, sorry I should have said canvas rotate and not image.
Try this and let me know if it works for you.

[frank abramonte]

0studmuffin, this is your original image.
http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1rk0pLTIBYAVBInEtXpaSgrBlExUi_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1rk0pLTIBYAVBInEtXpaSgrBlExUi)
More info on how to correct your problem.

Rotate your canvas 90 degrees
http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1H1CgqAacLxLvxVzNqdxc97MZbexz_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1H1CgqAacLxLvxVzNqdxc97MZbexz)


Now select only the person and rotate the person 90 degrees so that the person is now upright in the full green vertical background.

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1sRdyrWVI2ra3ql79ht815Ca3Ue0Jm_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1sRdyrWVI2ra3ql79ht815Ca3Ue0Jm)


Again, you can create a document to the size and shape you wish, fill it with a matching green. Then select the person and paste it into the new document.
Again, if you need clarification post back.

[ATR]

studmuffin and Frank,

Since this thread is in the Premiere Elements Forum, I am assuming the PE4 in the original post referred to Premiere Elements 4 and not Photoshop Elements 4.

So, studmuffin and Frank, are you both talking about the same program? I suspect not...studmuffine, Premiere Elements 4 and Frank Photoshop Elements 4.

studmuffin, I can answer your question one way or the other, but I need to know what program you intend to edit with and do your rotation in. It sure sounds like Frank is answering this from the Photoshop Elements perspective.

Please clarify so that we can give you the appropriate answer for what you have and are trying to do.


ATR

[frank abramonte]

ATR, yes actually CS2 since my old Elements 2 no longer works with my new operating system OS 10.5. However, both work pretty much the same.
It seemed to me that studmuffin was referring to elements.
Not knowing if the poster was aware of the number of way to solve problem, i just submitted the obivious ones.

studmuffin asks:
Question is, in PE4, is it possible to rotate the picture back so that the subject is in the middle of the screen? If so can anyone tell me how please?

[ATR]

Frank,

Use of terms such as "Elements", PE4, and PSE4, etc are all part of the confusion. Elements comes in two flavors...Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements.

If studmuffin is asking how to specifically for Premiere Elements 4, the instructions for doing this in CS2, Photoshop Elements 4, or any photo editing program do not answer the question. Since green screen shooting and Premiere Elements Chroma Key, Blue Screen Key, and Green Screen Key are popular effects in Premiere Elements AND since the question was placed in the Premiere Elements Forum, I saw what was being posted as a miscommunication.

Frank, at the present time, do you have any Premiere Elements version?

If I am wrong about my understanding of the question, apologizes. But, right now studmuffin needs to step forward to clarify.

But, this can be done in Premiere Elements if that information is what is being sought and requested.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Sorry about all this; I am talking about Premiere Elements - video.

[frank abramonte]

Sorry, ATR. Good catch.
No, I don't own Premiere Elements. What I own are listed at the bottom of my posts.
I guess that seeing the question posted on Elements and being referred to as PE 4 I sort to took it for granted that it was Elements involved.

One can photograph a subject against a monochromatic background to make it easier in selecting it later in photoshop, correct?

This is the same as a newbie asking a question, seeking a simple question, and not realizing that there are many ways to get a result.
They also have to be prompted to post a copy for us to see, which always makes life easier all around.

studmuffin, sorry if I led you astray.

[ATR]

studmuffin and Frank,

Knowledge is never put to waste. A year ago, I traveled a south route in Boston to get to an appointment and, when trying to find the north route to get back, I ended up way off course at the JFK library in South Boston. Several months later, when I did need to know how to get to the JFK library, I knew how.

Now, studmuffin let us see what we can do with your video shot against a green screen.

1. Given you are using Premiere Elements 4. Do you know anything about Effects/Video Effects/Keying/Chroma Key, Green Screen Key, or Blue Screen Key?

2. What is the format of the video that you are recording from your camera and that you will bring into Premiere Elements 4? If you do not know, please let me know the brand and model of the camcorder, and I will find out.

3. Are stills (people against green screen) as well as video (people against green screen) involved here?

4. After we get your media on the Timeline (Video Track 2), we are going to highlight it, go to Properties Palette/Motion Panel and there at its bottom apply a 90 degree rotation in the appropriate direction. Then we can:
a. apply the Chroma Key effect to make your green screen area transparent...a color matte can be played below on Video Track 1.
maybe
b. adjust the scale and position options in the Motion Panel of the Properties palette if necessary

Then we need to sit back and see what all that looks like. This is just an overview. If you are OK with just that, fine. If not, I will fill in some step by step gaps.

To be continued, if necessary

ATR

[ATR]

studmuffin

Add on...

Not seeing your source video recorded vertically, I am not sure of a happy ending, so......

I am working on another angle so to speak...

How are you planning on exporting your Premiere Elements 4 Timeline? Is it going to be DVD-VIDEO for TV viewing or an export type for computer playback?

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks to both of you, please see my comments below:

1. Given you are using Premiere Elements 4. Do you know anything about Effects/Video Effects/Keying/Chroma Key, Green Screen Key, or Blue Screen Key?

I know a little about the principles of keying and the importance of good lighting to get a successful key. I won't be doing the actual keying, my client will do that. He wants the raw footage, ieme, full length against the green screen.

2. What is the format of the video that you are recording from your camera and that you will bring into Premiere Elements 4? If you do not know, please let me know the brand and model of the camcorder, and I will find out.

My camera is a Canon HV30. The video is captured in AVI format. Probably shoot it in HD.

3. Are stills (people against green screen) as well as video (people against green screen) involved here?

I imagine that my client will use the green screen to place stills and graphics behind me.

4. After we get your media on the Timeline (Video Track 2), we are going to highlight it, go to Properties Palette/Motion Panel and there at its bottom apply a 90 degree rotation in the appropriate direction. Then we can:

That's easy - done that.

a. apply the Chroma Key effect to make your green screen area transparent...a color matte can be played below on Video Track 1.
maybe

Can you tell me how to place a colour matte on the track below please? Do I need to create a rectangle? Perhaps use the titles tool?

b. adjust the scale and position options in the Motion Panel of the Properties palette if necessary

Figured that one out now too, thank you.

Then we need to sit back and see what all that looks like. This is just an overview. If you are OK with just that, fine. If not, I will fill in some step by step gaps.

General question: is this a legitimate technique? I thought it up myself, but I'm sure I can't be the first. Haven't tested it yet, but do you think the image rotation might produce any artifacts? Any quality issues?

These little videos will end up as Flash files (SWF or FLV) on the web - probably quite small.

Many thanks again for baby sitting me through this. When it comes to the technolgy side of my job I'm forced labour really :)

To be continued, if necessary

ATR

[ATR]

studmuffin,

Thanks for your details.

This is going to be a quick post for now, specific to Color Matte. I will be back later with additional comments.

Open Premiere Elements 4

Click on the Edit Tab (Orange one) at top.

A short distance down from the Edit Tab, is a black tab named Project. Click on that.

At the far right in that Project Media Panel is a tiny white icon (page looking) which is "New Items". Click on that.

In the New Items list is Color Matte.

Important to remember: watch where you have the Timeline indicator (CTI) positioned when you create the Color Matte. After you pick your color in the dialog and click OK, the Color Matte is automatically placed on the Timeline at the position of the CTI. To avoid complications, maybe start by placing the CTI in a space a short distance from the rest of the media. Then after the Color Matte is placed there by the program, drag it to the position of choice/need.

To be continued.....

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks so far ATR :)

[ATR]

studmuffin

I just wanted to leave off this note. It might a good idea for you to mini road test that video with the green background, using Premiere Elements Chroma Key to see how your people look after the green area is made transparent with Chroma Key.

....especially if you start patching together a green background to fill in some gaps created in the video rotation process.

Today I installed a wireless printer and ran into difficulties that put me behind schedule....I forgot to shut off the "Mac Authentication" at the start in the wireless settings. The light bulb finally lit.

Later tonight or sooner, I will be back to see what is happening and see where we go from here.

To be continued....

ATR

[jeffrisk]

Please give all information in details.

[ATR]

jeffrisk

To whom is your post targeted...studmuffin or me?

If me, please let me know, and I will detail away.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Well I've just completed my first experiment. I'm happy to say it went quite. The key was easy with PE4 and the green screen disappeared perfectly.

Just a couple of things I need to work on:

My talent has very light blond hair. Obviously this is reflecting back some of the green light, because here and there you can see traces of the matte bleeding through. I guess the answer is to stand the talent further away from the green screen. In an ideal world I would, but I just don't have the space.

I'm going to try some more experiments. I wasn't using any kind of shoulder or hair light and I'm wondering if some light from above might help. Trouble is the only light I can use for a hair light is tungsten and my key light is daylight. Well, who knows? It might work. Maybe I'm over exposing anway, because the hair is coming out VERY blonde.

The other issue I've got is a slightly jagged quality to edges of my talents legs. I don't notice it so much on the upper torso. I suspect this might be the limitations of a single chip camera?

Is there any kind of plug in that PE4 has that will smooth those edges?

And if anyone has any guerrilla tips for the hair reflection issue, I'd be grateful. Thanks!

[ATR]

studmuffin

Thanks for the report of your progress.

There are lots of Green Screen Shooting tips scattered all over the Internet. Have you seen the following (just two of many)??

http://www.videomaker.com/article/10914/

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/onneweer_barend/chromashoot.php

The lighting and the Green Screen shooting are the keys to success. But, just in case, once you apply the Green Screen Key to the video in Premiere Elements, there is always the adjusts in Edit Effects (Similarity, Blend, Cutoff, Smoothing (none, low, high). Some people prefer the "auto" Green Screen Key (aka Videomerge) instead of the Green Screen Key.

We will be watching for your progress.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks again for the input. Just one problem remaining. My microphone is peaking into shot. The viewfinder doesn't show it, but when I get it into Elements, there's an inch or so showing. I don't really want to shoot again - is there a quick and easy way that I can either mask it off or crop the image?

If you could help urgently I'd be grateful :)

[studmuffin]

Aha! I just found out how to do a garbage matte! Thanks - it works

[ATR]

studmuffin

Sorry I did not get here sooner this morning, but you appear to have found the answer to your emergency rapidly. Great job.

I will be watching for your continued success.

Keep up the good work.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Hi ATR - I'm stuck again!

I've got the green screen and the keying and the garbage matt all sorted and working, but now I need to export my file as a transparant Flash movie (swf or flv). Have I hit a brick wall? Can PE do this or do I need a more sophisticated program?

Many thanks

[ATR]

studmuffin

Never did this, but...here goes a suggestion which I will try to back up later with some links...

Premiere Elements does not have a swf Flash Export...only FLV or F4V.

Share
Personal Computer
Adobe Flash Video
NTSC Flash Video 7 256K (also see others)
Under Advance Button...select Video Codec = On2 VP6 and check the box for "Encode Alpha Channel".
Under Advance Button...Format Tab is a check off for FLV or F4V. Go with the FLV for now.

Here is some chat from about transparency in export as .avi
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/389695

I will see what I can find.

ATR

[studmuffin]

ATR - Oh Guru :)

Did that - or treied to but....

I couldn't see the check box for encode alpha channel. Is thi something that came new with Prem El 7? I'm still on Prem El 4 here. Or am I being dim? On the advance tab you can only set key frame distance.

[ATR]

studmuffin

You are OK. It is me thinking 7 when I should be thinking 4.

1. Adobe Flash Video export with its Video Codec: On2 VP6 and that Encode Alpha Channel option....7 has both, 4 has the On2 VP6 Video Codec, but not the Encode Alpha Channel option that I thought might work.

2. The avi with the transparency mentioned in the link that I included in previous post....that probably would be doable in both 7 and 4 if:
a. Export Timeline, File Menu/Export/Movie, with settings General, File Type: Microsoft AVI and with settings Video, Compressor: None and the important part Color Depth: "Millions + Colors", not "Millions of Colors".

I am almost certain that After Effects might do the job. What do think about downloading the free 30 day tryout of Premiere Elements 7 and see what that can do in this regard. You would not have to uninstall Premiere Elements 4, just not use 4 and 7 at the same time.

I will look around for more ideas.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks ATR. You're a star.

I know that Afeter Effects will definitely do the job - it's just so expensive! Will try the AVI idea

[Chuck Engels]

Uncompressed AVI will work but the file will be huge. Premiere Pro or After effects will do the FLV, only Flash will encode an SWF with alpha/transparency. This would be worth an upgrade to version 7 I think.

[ATR]

studmuffin,

I will be watching for your progress. Good luck.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Two steps forward one step back and sometime one step forward two steps back!

ATR

I figured I would render to an AVI file with transparent background as per the link to the thread which you gave me. The I want to use Sorenson Squeeze to encode that to a Flash file.

So I go export,movie, settings, micosoft avi, but then I hit a brick wall. I can't seem to encode the alpha channel to an AVI file. No matter what codec I select the colour depth field is always greyed out. So I can't select millions + colours.

So near but so far - so far! Help!!!

[ATR]

studmuffin,
Premiere Elements 4/File Menu/Export/Movie
Export Movie Settings Dialog
General Section.......you set File Type = Microsoft AVI
and in
Video Section..........you need to use Color Depth = Millions + of Colors

The catch is that there are only 2 video compressor choices that offer that Color Depth = Millions + of Colors, that being:
a. None
b. TechSmith Capture Codec

If you select None, do you see Millions + of Colors offered as one of the Color Depth choices?

I would start with None...not sure if uncompressed video will or will not create an issue with your current computer system. I have never before run into the TechSmith Capture Codec. This is my quick look up for it:
http://www.techsmith.com/codecs/tscc/default.asp

Let me know how you do with the "None" compressor route. Do you have a friend who has Premiere Elements 7 already installed on his/her computer? The Premiere Elements 7 Adobe Flash Video export with the Encode Alpha Channel and On2 VP6 Video Codec may be the quickest and cheapest thing to try as a tryout next.

To be continued.....

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks again ATR

I'm afraid neither of the encododing options work. They just won't open up the colour depth box. Weird.

Maybe I should upgrade to PE7.

I like Sorenson squeeze reasons:

1. It will let me crop the image to be encoded. Although I've shot in wide screen I need to end up with a flash file that is tall and narrow. I can't see how to do that in Prem El.

2 Once I have cropped teh vido, Squeez will then let me specify an output height in Pixels while mainatin the new aspect ratio. I can't see an option to do that in Prem El either.

[ATR]

studmuffin

I would need to think about why you are not getting the choice of Color Depth.

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=premiere%5Felements&loc=en%5Fus

I would give the Premiere Elements 7 tryout route. See link above.

I will think on this some more.

ATR
(You did remove the green to create the transparency beforehand?)

[studmuffin]

Going to try Prem El 7.

Found the crop function under effects. I just need to contrain my proportions on the output to Flash file. Can't see that one yet!

[ATR]

studmuffin,

Here are my results from experimenting.....

In both Premiere Elements 4 and 7, the export to .avi (with its transparency intact) worked great....using File Menu/Export/Movie and Settings for Microsoft AVI, None for Compression, and Color Depth: Millions + of Colors. By any chance were you selecting Microsoft DV AVI in the General Section of the Settings?

Now, that not so good news. In Premiere Elements 7, I am still trying to get the Adobe Flash Video export to work with my video file in which I have created a transparency (same file that I used in the .avi route).

If I use the Video Codec = On2 VP6 which has the option Encode Alpha Channel plus the Format = FLV, I get an error message = Invalid Argument....tried several variations in its Advance, none worked for that so far.

If I use the Video Codec = On2 VP6 which has the option Encode Alpha Channel, but change the Format = F4V, then the Video Codec automatically switches to Main Concept H.264 Video with no option for Encode Alpha Channel...that I can export(save).

Right now the .avi route appears to be the way to go in Premiere Elements for exporting a video with its transparency. I will keep working on this.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Thanks for th input. It's strange. I did exactly what you suggested used Microsoft AVI (not AVI DV), but I STILL don't get the option to choose colour depth.

I have installed PE7 and it's not at all happy. Haven't done a search on this yet, but I'm guessing there are some installation issues or conflicts with PE 4? It simply freezes up when I import a previous PE4 project into it. Why are things never straightfoward?

[ATR]

studmuffin

With the Premiere Elements 4 project.....go to the hard drive location where the project .prel file is saved to (probably in the default location My Documents/Adobe/Premiere Elements 4/). Then right click the project .prel file that you want to open, select Open With, and click on Premiere Elements 7.

Before you do all that, make a copy of the original Premiere Elements 4 .prel and work from that, just in case. If my memory serves me right, once you open/edit an earlier version .prel in Premiere Elements 7, you cannot edit it again in the earlier version. I think that is how it goes.

Good news is just around the corner, I hope.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Hi again

One step fowrad two steps back on this project. I feel tantalisingly close to success. I'm getting a great key, no problem. But heaven knows why I cannot export and retain the alpha channel in any format. Whenever I try and export using either Microsoft AVI or Quicktime, in both cases none for compression, the coulour depth is always greyed out - no option to slect anything. So frustrating! I'm so close now!

Still using PE4. I have the trial of PE7, but the results are exactly the same - colour depth is never an option.

Ah well, any clues why I can't select colour depth would be much appreciated. :)

[ATR]

studmuffin

I need to think on the Microsoft AVI routes and what is going wrong there?

But, since you have Premiere Elements 7 try out, did you try what was mentioned back in post #25 of this thread, namely an Adobe Flash Video export, determining whether or not that use of its On2VP6 with Encode Alpha Channel checked would be an alternative to get the job done?

To be continued....

ATR

[ATR]

Studmuffin...

As they say, this is just a test....

Open Premiere Element 4 or 7
Create A New Project
Set the Project Preset for: NTSC DV Standard

When the Premiere Elements working interface opens,
Select "T" (Add Default Text icon at lower right of Edit Mode Monitor).
When the Titler opens, go to the Text toolbar and select the Ellipse Tool
Draw out an ellipse in the center of the screen leaving black "transparency" everywhere else. The ellipse will probably be white. You do not even have to remove the words "Add Text". Just draw that ellipse right over it. Click Done.

You will find that Title automatically placed on the Timeline. Make sure it is highlighted.

File Menu/Export/Settings
Settings: Microsoft AVI, Compressor: None; Color Depth: Millions + of color. Do you get that Color Depth option?

If so, Save (to location of choice on hard drive--a copy will automatically be placed as an .avi file in the media in Premiere Elements).

If this does not work, then the cause of your problems is not related to the specific type of video that you have been working with.

Looking forward to your results.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Hi there ATR

Did that test exactly as you described and yes it works, for the first time I get the colour depth option and I can choose millions plus.

Hmmm very strange.

My projects are usually PAL HD Widescreen.

Going to try the same experiment now with those settings!

Will report back....

[studmuffin]

Well that's odd. The problem seems to be with the HD setting. I can always access the colour depth when my project is DV - no matter if it's PAL or NTSC. However, whenever I select HD in PAL or NTSC the colour depth is greyed out. How frustrating. Is this a bug do you think?

[ATR]

I would rather think of it as feature not available in File Menu/Export/Movie Settings when the Premiere Elements project preset is one of the HD choices.

Do not give up yet....progress is around the corner....two things for you to explore:

1. Premiere Elements 7 tryout....
a. Set your project preset NTSC DV Widescreen 16:9 or PAL counterpart..export your Timeline via Share/Personal Computer/Adobe Flash Video
b. Under the Adobe Flash Video Advance button: use On2VP6 with the "Encode Alpha Channel" checked. Then change the frame size and frame rate as tolerated.
( This one needs more work on compatible project presets.)

2. Premiere Elements 7 tryout or your Premiere Elements 4....
a. Set your project preset to NTSC (or PAL) Widescreen 16:9...export your Timeline via File Menu/Export/Movie.
b. In the Settings dialog, setup for Microsoft AVI, compression NONE and adjust the frame size, frame rate accordingly...1440 x 1080 30 fps with pixel aspect ration = HD Anamorphic 1080 (1.333). Set Color Depth for Millions + of colors.

Try the 2nd suggestion first. I have not tried these yet...later this afternoon. I giving you the first "shot" at them. Good luck.

ATR

[studmuffin]

I've been using the quicktime animation codec with pretty good success

[ATR]

Studmuffin

Your news sounds great, but....

I've been using the quicktime animation codec

Where and How? Are you using the Premiere Elements 4 or 7 Apple Animation Video Codec (Share/Personal Computer/Quicktime/Cable Modem and, under Advance Tab, use the Video Codec = Apple Animation)??

If so, I do not see any option in Premiere Elements 4 or 7, for the Alpha Channel. And, if I use it as is, the transparency is not maintained in the .mov export.

ATR

[studmuffin]

Not sure how I've done it. I'm still using PE4 and I'm importing HD footage. Screenshot attached. It won't work for 25p (in fact nothing works for 25p) see my other post. I'm thinking of giving up on that format altogether.

And the frustrating thing is that I can't make it happen again. I have just one project file that seems to work and allow me to access the millions+ option. I guess I'm doomed to a life of "save as" - until I can figure out how I got there!

[ATR]

studmuffin

Yes, you will find that recipe again. Just think about what you did in the past successfully and what you did now unsuccessfully.

About this "25p", we will figure that out in your other thread.

To be continued there,

ATR

[ATR]

studmuffin

Question....you say that your "25p" does not work (for that matter, not even previously successful other formats) in creating a video with transparency.

Upon what are you basing your success or failure?

Given that you have a video with transparency that you created in Premiere Elements 4 and exported from File Menu/Export/Movie with setting for Quicktime/Animation/Compression None and Color Depth millions + of colors....

Are you judging success on the playback of that .mov export in Quicktime, showing the transparency, or are you judging success on the playback of the .mov export after it is re imported to the Premiere Elements 4 Timeline and showing the transparency?

ATR

[studmuffin]

When I say 25p doesn't work, I just mean that I cannot get it into my PC and edit it without locking my system up - sorry for the lack of clarity- it's born of frustration and hastiness.

[ATR]

studmuffin

What is the length of the "25p" that is locking up your computer?

Have you had time to check out your computer resources lately? You may have a lot of files piling up on your computer.

To be continued....

ATR