Pixel Aspect Ratio

[bjfraser47]

I just captured video clips into PE7 using the Sony DCR-HC28 camcorder. In looking at the properties of the clips I noticed that they had a pixel aspect ratio of 0.9. What exactly does that mean? PE7 was configured with a DV standard preset. I thought the aspect ratio should be 4:3 for standard video. I guess I'm confused so any information would be appreciated.

[Chuck Engels]

Probably more than you want to know but this explains it all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio


What you are seeing is correct :)

[bjfraser47]

Very helpful...thanks.

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Basically, the Pixel Aspect Ratio is a correction factor for the rectangular and square pixel issue, not to be confused with the aspect ratio related to the frame size of the video, 4:3 or 16:9.

In the description of the Premiere Elements project preset for NTSC DV Standard (for example):
Standard NTSC Video (4:3 interlaced).
That 4:3 aspect ratio is related to the pixel dimensions of the the frame size, that being 720 x 480 pixels.
But, you will notice that NTSC DV Widescreen 16:9 also has a frame size of 720 x 480. That is because a 16:9 flag stretches the 720 x 480 so that you end up with Widescreen 16:9.

If you would like, I could go into more details about the other presets where you might think that there are conflicts in what you see. But, think aspect ratio of 4:3 or 16:9 for video and 3:2 for photo printouts.

Please post any further questions if clarification is needed.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

Thank you, I do have another question. What would be the best output to export to for the best resolution? I want to burn the video to a DVD. Should I output to 4:3 or 16:9? If I understand, if I output to 16:9, since this is SD, it will be letterboxed on a wide-screen tv. Is that correct?

[jmsweatt]

This was very helpful for me too, Chuck and ATR. Thanks!

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Just to let you know that I have not forgotten about your last question. It is a more interesting question than you would imagine.

I will be back latter this afternoon or early this evening (USA East Coast Time) with what I hope will be interesting comments about video formats, TV properties, and DVD player properties, and encoded format vs final display.

To be continued....

ATR

[ATR]

bjfraser47

I am assuming that your questions relates to burning your Premiere Elements Timeline NTSC DV Standard 4:3 vs NTSC Widescreen 16:9 and the consequences when viewing this on a Widescreen TV. Here are some considerations:

1. Both Standard 4:3 and Widescreen 16:9 have the same frame size, namely 720 x 480 pixels, the difference being the 16:9 flag in the Widescreen encoding which stretches the 720 x 480 video for display purposes. See the following link for some background:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/aspectratios/widescreenorama.html

2. But, two of the important factors that enter into this equation are
a. TV settings available and how you are defining “Widescreen TV” and how these settings are set.
b. DVD player settings available and how these settings are set.

Maybe I can give you an idea from my not so high tech TV/DVD setup and how its relates to my playback of the DVD-VIDEOs that I create with Premiere Elements Burn to Disc, either Standard 4:3 vs Widescreen 16:9.

I have an LCD TV, 19 inch Monitor with resolution of 1440 x 900 pixels. The LCD TV specs say that it supports 480i, 480p, 720i, 720p, and 1080i. However, my Panasonic DVD player supports only 480i. The player gives me 4:3 TV settings for DVD-VIDEO:

4:3 TV settings
Pan and Scan (Stretch to fit)
or
Letterbox (Shrink to fit).

These are the results:
a. With Pan and Scan (Stretch to fit)….both the Standard 4:3 and Widescreen 16:9 fill the 1440 x 900 19 inch LCD Monitor…looks great.
b. With Letterbox (Shrink to fit)…the Standard 4:3 fills the 1440 x 900 19 inch LCD Monitor whereas the Widecreen 16:9 is displayed in a stricken state with black borders around the whole. The black border and shrunken video do not look inviting. One of these days I need to upgrade my DVD player among other things.

So, although I consider my LCD TV “Widescreen”, my results would not necessary apply to your setup and what you meant by Widescreen. Another thought to throw in here is that some TV systems can upconvert DVD-VIDEO to 1080i, displaying a video of improved quality over the original.

Others may come by to add to this discussion, but right now this is my suggestion:
a. create two versions of a mini project, burn each to DVD-VIDEO, one standard (4:3) and the other widescreen (16:9) and explore and experiment with your TV as well as your DVD player display settings.

Mini projects to test out different aspects of your coming grand project are always the way to go.

Please keep us updated on your progress.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

Thanks for all this great information. I'll keep experimenting. I'm working with a friend on creating a short documentary on a local artist, so over the course of the coming months I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions.

[bjfraser47]

After some deliberation, my friend and I decided to shoot our project in HD and I have a question. We will be using 2 cameras, a Canon HF10 and a Canon HV30, shooting at 1440x1080 setting. Since the HF10 uses AVCHD and the HV30 mpeg, will there be any problems capturing and editing in Premiere 7? I have plenty of computer resources (quad system with 4gb memory and 1TB hard drive) but my main concern is in mixing the two formats in Premiere.

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Did you say how you intent to export the end product? For now, assuming non DVD-VIDEO Standard or Widescreen.

Re: capture, the end result for both camcorders will probably end up being the same, with the video files saved to the hard drive location rather than being captured directly into Premiere Elements.

Although the HV30 is a miniDV camcorder for which you could use a firewire connection for direct capture into Premiere Elements, there are often problems in doing that. So, you will see recommended capture of the HDV HV30 recordings using HDVSplit, followed by bringing the split scenes into Premiere Elements from their save location on the hard drive.

All that being said and resources permitting, you should be able to import AVCHD and HDV video files to the Premiere Elements Timeline for editing.
Considerations which I believe could be handled:
1. Project Preset...
AVCHD HD 1080i and HDV HD 1080i both have pixel aspect ratio=HD Anamorphic (I am assuming that you are shooting the AVCHD, non full)
However, your HF10 camcorder recording AVCHD is listed as a Flash Memory Camcorder. The Premiere Elements project preset for that would lead you to one with pixel aspect ratio=square pixels. So I would look at the AVCHD or the HDV project presets.
2. I believe that the audio for each camcorder is Dolby Digital Stereo, thus avoiding Premiere Elements handling of 5.1 channel sound. Premiere Elements exports Dolby Digital Stereo, not 5.1 channel sound.

Bottom line: Resources are my main concern with this type of a project, but I believe that you can successfully mix various Premiere Elements 7 supported formats on the Timeline, edit, and export. Try it as a mini test run and let me know the outcome. I will see what else I can find on the subject.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

OK, thanks. Yes, I plan on recording a few clips with both cameras using the same resolution settings and test capturing and editing on the timeline. I did try a few weeks ago to capture the HV30 video via firewire in Premiere and had problems. I also remember having problems with HDVSplit not recognizing the camera, but I'll double check my settings and try again. I'll let you know the outcome.

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Please give that HDVSplit another look. It should work.

NBK has been working with the Canon HV30 and capture of the HDV from it.
http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46977
Have you seen that thread?

I am looking forward to your results.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

A question: I saw in a review of the Canon HV30 that even though there's a setting for 1920x1080, the effective resolution is really only 1440x1080. The Canon HF10 does have an effective resolution of 1920x1080. Does this mean I should be using the 1440x1080 setting rather than 1920x1080 on both cameras for consistency in editing? Does it matter?

[ATR]

bjfraser47

That gets tricky.

When you see full 1920 x 1080, that means that you have a frame size of 1920 x 1080 (16:9) and the pixel aspect ratio is square = 1, a corrective factor added as appropriate during encoding.

When you see 1440 x 1080, that is not full and means that your frame size is 1440 x 1080 (4:3) and depends on the HD anamorphic aspect ratio, a 16:9 flag included in the coding, to get the final product TV display as 1920 x 1080 (after the appropriate stretching by the TV/DVD player).

So, if I were going to do this, I would probably start using the HD 1080i 30 setting for both camera recordings, that is, non full, 1440 x 1080 which uses the anamorphic aspect ratio 16:9 flag. My Premiere Elements project preset would be as either AVCHD HD 1080i or HDV HD 1080i.

I will see if I can find some time to try some variations on this tonight. But, did we decide how you were going to export the Timeline?

My main concerns are during the editing of what appears on the Timeline and how that will be reflected in the final product at Preview and after encoding/burning with regard to the TV display. I was going to type out a few scenarios, but think it better if you let me know your plans for exporting this project.

To be continued....

ATR

[bjfraser47]

I'm going to export the Timeline to DVD. Maybe eventually to Blu-Ray if and when I purchase a writer. But for now I'm planning only to DVD.

[ATR]

I will work on this later today, with end product DVD-VIDEO Widescreen 16:9.

But you realize, the DVD-VIDEO has a frame size of 720 x 480 (4:3) Standard or Widescreen. Widescreen will contribute the 16:9 flag to stretch the video.

Downsizing of your high definition by Premiere Elements is not always good, and often it is recommended that downsizing be done in the camcorder. And, that brought into Premiere Elements. The HV30 may offer that feature. I do not know about the AVCHD flash memory camcorder.

So, we may have to throw those consideration into this.

To be continued,

ATR

[bjfraser47]

When you say downsize in the camcorder what do you mean? Shoot at SD res rather than HD?

[ATR]

Shoot in HD. then downconvert in the Canon HV30....
Check out this description. If necessary, I will try to find a better one....

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=10949

ATR

[bjfraser47]

Lots of problems. First, HDVSplit will not recognize the HV30 when set to DV Lock. If I set it for HDV outout, the program recognizes the camera and starts to capture but stops after 1 second and says there is no more data coming from the camera. I recorded the clip in HDV 1920x1080, outputting in 1080/480i. Not sure where to go from here.

[Chuck Engels]

If you set the DV Lock for SD Capture you will need to capture with an SD capture utility like WinDV rather than HDVSplit as it is a HDV capture utility and you will then be capturing SD video, not HDV ;)

If you are downconverting in the camcorder you can capture with Premiere Elements and it should work ok and it should also be able to split scenes by time code as well. But if not then WinDV is a good free alternative.

[ATR]

I believe that HDVSplit just works with HDV. There should be no issue for SD and the miniDV firewire capture into Premiere Elements since the path should be looking at a routine SD miniDV firewire capture into Premiere Elements.

Have you tried setting up the Canon for downconversion and then just capturing into Premiere Elements via the firewire connection, no HDVSplit?

I think that I lost you somewhere....I am not clear on your camcorder set...what happened to 480i (aka 720 x 480)? Is your "1080i/480i" just a shorthand for going from recording at 1080i to transfer to 480i?

There is always the possibility that Premiere Elements will do an acceptable job downsizing the 1080i to 480i, so, if all else fails, we can still look at that route and forget about downconversion in the Canon HV30.

To be continued.....

ATR

[bjfraser47]

I am lost. Why am I downsizing to SD when I want HD? Last time I edited using my HF10 I imported the AVCHD into Premiere at 1920x1080, edited them and outputted to DVD and it looked great. Why can't I do that with the HV30? I'm confused.

[ATR]

If that was the case with your AVCHD, then do the same with the HDV.
I was about to post a link for you to check out about AVCHD to DVD-VIDEO, but it sure does not seem to apply to what you obtained.
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/429553?tstart=0

You may not need the workaround (downconverting in camcorder) that you see so often for users disappointed by the downconversion by Premiere Elements in its handling of Canon HV30 HDV to DVD-VIDEO.

From what I have read, because you have started with HDV, the camera downconverted video should be better quality than if you just shot in SD.

Do not give up.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

Nope, not gonna give up. I think I will try to capture the HDV using the HDVSplit again. It was stopping right after starting the capture. If I can't get it to work I may eventually have to find and use another camera. So many folks seem to be having problems with it. Thanks again for your help. I'll keep you posted.

[bjfraser47]

Well I just tried to capture HDV with HDVSplit. It won't even recognize the camera now. Not worth the hassle with this camera. Would appreciate any last minute suggestions.

[ATR]

Let us do a recap:

Canon HV30
a. HDVSplit did not work for HDV capture, followed by bringing the split video clips into Premiere Elements from the hard drive save location
Have you tried
1. a routine capture of HDV into Premiere Elements (camcorder firewire Premiere Elements Capture Window)...very unlikely to work, but...
2. HDV downconverted to SD in the camcorder, followed by capture into Premiere Elements Capture Window (if this works, you will have the HDV plus the SD Widescreen capture for the specific purpose of generating your DVD-VIDEO Widescreen. With your present goal, that HDV will be downconverted in encoding or in the camcorder and the preferred route is supposed to be the camcorder for best results.

There have been many headaches reported with Canon HV30 and Premiere Elements HDV. But, there are those who succeed.

Please review the recap and see if you tried all so far.

I will keep thinking on this one.

To be continued....

ATR

[ATR]

Add on...

Did you see CE's suggestion a few posts ago...

If you set the DV Lock for SD Capture you will need to capture with an SD capture utility like WinDV rather than HDVSplit as it is a HDV capture utility and you will then be capturing SD video, not HDV

So, WinDV, SD capture only
HDVSplit, HDV capture only

With the split clips brought into Premiere Elements via its Get Media/Files and Folders.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

From your list it looks like I tried all except for downconverting in the camera and trying to capture in Premiere. I will try that. If that works, does that mean I will have to downconvert also in the HF10 camera? I haven't seen in the docs whether it has that capability.

So let me also recap the steps.
1. Downconvert in the HV30 and import using Premiere.
2. Import the HD HF10 video into Premiere as I've been doing.
3. Edit all clips on Timeline.
4. Export to DVD.

Two questions: What preset do I use, and does this mean for my situation, that if I shoot with the HV30 I will never be able to produce HD using Premiere since I can't get the HDV to import?

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Good Morning
Suggested for today's immediate attention in order posted

Canon HV30

1. Downconvert the HDV to SD widescreen in the HV30, capture (firewire) into Premiere Elements that has a project preset set for NTSC DV Widescreen (16:9). Let us see if that works to get the HV30 video unto the Premiere Elements Timeline. If you do, burn that Timeline to DVD-VIDEO (DV NTSC Widescreen) and see what that looks like with your player. If the capture and the quality of the end product on are OK, then stop and let me know.

2. Hope that it does not get to this, but downconvert the HDV to SD Widescreen in the HV30, capture into WinDV (not Premiere Elements)
http://windv.mourek.cz/
then bring the split clips into Premiere Elements Timeline (project preset NTSC DV Widescreen (16:9), burn that Timeline to DVD-VIDEO (DV NTSC Widescreen). See what that end product looks like with your player.

As for ever getting the HDV without downconverting first, we will deal with that next (again). This is a major issue for Premiere Elements users and HV30 owners. I will search online for more worst case scenarios and possible fixes.

I will wait for your results before I start any experiments with combining video of AVCHD and HDV origins in a single Premiere Elements Projects.

Have you read through NBK's threads here on the subject?

ATR

[ATR]

bjfraser47

To today's activities, please add to the list another look at HDVSplit capture of your HV30 HDV video, using the suggestions that fall into place toward the end of the following link:

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/cannot-capture-with-hv30-t366076.html

Maybe that tip will do it. If not, we look search further.

ATR
(In your next post, could you please refresh my memory re: your computer operating system, available RAM, free hard drive space, etc?)

[bjfraser47]

Success!! I followed the procedure of turning the camera on hooked up to the firewire and then turned the computer on. Camera was recognized. I then started playback and hit the capture button. It captured the clip perfectly in 1440x1080. I then imported the clip into Premiere Timeline, added a clip I already had imported from another project (this clip was actually 1920x1080 so I wasn't sure how that would be), added a cross dissolve transition and burned it to DVD using the HD widescreen setting. Output looks great on my 32' lcd. Onward and upward!

[ATR]

bjfraser47

Can you hear the cheers here and the palpitations sparked by your news of your success. I do not have the words to describe my joy for your success. Bless those people in that link for their chat. Absolutely marvelous.

For anyone pulling up this link in Google, I would make these comments...do not give up, keep searching, and have the determination of bjfraser47 to not give up.

Good job, bjfraser47. Keep up the good work and continued success.

ATR

[bjfraser47]

Thanks for all the help. I plan now to shoot video in 1440X1080 in both cameras and keep testing to be sure everything continues to work. I'll keep you all posted.