Another Reason Not To Like Raw in PSE

[dj_paige]

I continue to experiment with RAW, and now I have come up against another PSE5 problem handling raw files that I find extremely irritating. Couple that with known drawbacks of RAW -- they take more space, and they require more processing, I still am not convinced that RAW is a good choice for me.

My latest problem is that after you edit a RAW photo and then open it in the PSE editor (not the ACR editor) to do additional edits, your captions, notes and map locations disappear when you save it as .jpg or .psd. This most definitely does not happen if you open a .jpg, edit that, and then save. Well, what's the point of having an Organizer to manage your photos if it loses key information that you need to organize your photos?

Worse, if you have a RAW photo in the Organizer, you have added a caption, notes, map locations, and then you do an Export to a .jpg, it does save your captions, notes and map locations (so it is possible, not a surprise), but it loses your EXIF information. Now, I would like, when I need to make a .jpg from a RAW, that all the identifying information (IPTC and EXIF) will remain with the .jpg ... not an unreasonable request, and certainly should be possible to do ... but this simply doesn't happen in PSE5.

[Ric Cisson]

Paige, I'm sorry, I must not fully understand your problem. I read your post and then went back into PSE5 Organizer, opened and processed a RAW file in ACR 4.3.1 and saved that as a PSD. The IPTC and EXIF data remained intact and with a few updates in the Metadata, the data in both files, the RAW and the PSD are identical. I have never heard of anyone having the issue you have identified, so I thought I would try the organizer, which I do not use except when I teach...so everything seems fine here...am I misunderstanding something?

I want to add that I did reprocess the RAW file and then save that as a Jpg and again, checking the Metadata, both the IPTC and the EXIF data is all intact and identical to the original file as applicable.

[dj_paige]

Here's what I do. In the Organizer, I assign a caption, note and map location to a Raw photo. Then, from the Organizer, I edit the photo (first ACR opens, then I click on Open Image and make further edits in the PSE Editor), and save the result as a .psd or .jpg. Then I look in the Organizer at the caption, note or map location of the .psd or .jpg, and they are gone.

To clarify, I am not looking in the .jpg file or .psd file at the IPTC info using non PSE tools like Irfanview to see what the IPTC contains; I am using the Organizer to see what the Organizer thinks is the caption, note and map location in the .jpg or .psd, and as I said, they are blank. The information has been lost by the Organizer.

If you are doing this exact sequence of steps and don't see the problem, then we would have to brainstorm why I see this problem and you don't. Or perhaps you have a sequence of steps that is different than mine that doesn't show this problem, in which case I would like to know exactly how you did that. (Are you using .xmp files?)

[Ric Cisson]

Paige, I just tried 4 new RAW files shot yesterday, while I don't use the organizer as previously stated, my workflow is very much like yours and my results show all the info that I posted, including caption, notes, and map location (which I do not use at all), and additionally checking IPTC and EXIF data within the organizer info pallete. Additionally, I write to XMP file when processing in ACR.

That's my findings as I have done a "troubleshoot" from my perspective. Have you tried to reset your preferences?

[dj_paige]

Thanks for your help, Ric. When I get home tonight I will try resetting my preferences and see what happens.

Just out of curiosity, when you add a caption, a note, or a map location to a Raw photo, does that caption (note or map location) appear in the .xmp file? It does not appear in my .xmp files, and I am wondering if it should be there when things are working properly.

[kimi_boo]

hold on here... I am stuggling because I am now shooting in raw. I hate Bridge and have a version of LR beta 2 that I am none to fond of. I didn't think the organizer could handle my raw files. I was wrong??? :eek:

[Byron Gale]

Kimi,

I use Organizer to handle my D80 RAW (.NEF) files.

The main difference in processing is that when you select one in Org. to edit, it opens in ACR. After you make any adjustments in ACR, it then opens in Editor.

I haven't shot anything but RAW for months, now.

Byron

[Chuck S.]

Kimi,


The main difference in processing is that when you select one in Org. to edit, it opens in ACR. After you make any adjustments in ACR, it then opens in Editor.

Byron

Or, in Organizer, you can select a RAW file, then Ctrl-H to open it in CS3 (if you've set the preference for a secondary editor in the Organizer preferences). It will then open in ACR, but it will be the full-blown ACR attached to CS3. And then on into CS3 for further magic!

[johnrellis]

Paige,

Using your file DSC_4162.nef that you posted a while ago, I was able to replicate the same symptoms with PSE 5 – metadata is lost in the Organizer after invoking the Editor. This doesn’t happen with PSE 6, however.

I’ve found several PSE metadata bugs that are specific to particular name-brand cameras and scanners:

- Ric, what kind of camera produced your raw files?

- Byron, you also have a D80 – do you have PSE 5, and have you tried attaching captions, notes, and map locations to your raw files in the Organizer before editing, and are they preserved after editing? [Note: original message said just "notes", not "captions, notes".]

DETAILS

With PSE 5.0.2 and ACR 4.4, I imported the Nikon D80 .nef into the Organizer, added a caption, notes, and keyword tag, adjusted the date/time, and placed the file on the map.

I did a File > Write Keyword Tags and Properties command, and no .xmp sidecar file was created.

Then I invoked the full editor, did Open Image in ACR, made an edit, and saved as a .jpg in the same version set.

At that point, within the Organizer the caption and map location are missing from the new version, but the keyword tag and notes have been applied to the new version. The adjusted date/time of both the original and the edited version has been lost, reset to the original date/time. The .xmp sidecar file does not contain any of the added metadata – no caption, notes, keyword tag, map location, or adjusted date/time. The EXIF data of the edited .jpg does not contain it either.

Doing a File > Write Keyword Tags and Properties command again still fails to update the .xmp file with the added metadata.

Using a tracing tool, I discovered that the Organizer tries but fails to create a .xmp file for some reason. The .xmp file eventually gets created by the Editor when you invoke it, but since the Editor doesn’t have access to the Organizer’s metadata, none of it gets written into the .xmp file.

That the adjusted date/time gets reset to the original time is related to yet another bug. Whenever you invoke the full Editor and return, the Organizer reads the date/time from the file’s metadata. If it previously wasn’t able to successfully write a new date/time into the metadata (as in this case), then any adjusted date/time in the Organizer gets overwritten with the old date/time from the metadata.

[TonyW]

Paige/John: It is curious the way it works. In PSE6/ACR 4.4 the RAW (In my case a D80 NEF) file xmp data contains Caption and Note info from the Organizer but not Map Data (which in the case of a JPEG shows up as a latititude and longitude in the GPS data field). I thought xmp data was supposed to support GPS data but I can't find it. If I convert to a jpeg the only data that gets preserved is the Caption data which gets written to the jpeg IPTC field. The only way to retain all the data in the Organizer is to save the jpeg file in a version set with the Raw file - then the jpeg retains the Caption, Note and Map data which is presumably in the Organizer database and not embedded in the file.

Haven't tried this in PSE5 so don't know if it works differently in that version.

Tony

[johnrellis]

I thought xmp data was supposed to support GPS data but I can't find it.

XMP does support GPS data. When I do File > Write Keyword Tags on a .jpg, the map location shows up in the XMP section of the metadata.

But it doesn't show up in the .xmp sidecar of either a D80 or a Canon G9 raw file. See this message for other bugs with PSE 6's handling of GPS locations:

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.3c0597f1/4

[dj_paige]

Thanks for looking into this, John R Ellis. After I reset my preferences, the notes do appear, and the tag is properly applied, when I save a .jpg that was originally Raw, but the caption and map location fail to appear. So ... I guess you are correct that this may be camera dependent ... Nikon D80 show the problem, whatever Ric Cisson's camera is does not show the problem.

Byron Gale ... can you replicate this problem in PSE5 from your Nikon D80 photos?

Mark me down as bummed out, I was really starting to see benefits to raw.

[johnrellis]

Using your file DSC_4162.nef that you posted a while ago, I was able to replicate the same symptoms with PSE 5 – metadata is lost in the Organizer after invoking the Editor.

I just verified the same problem occurs with Canon G9 raw files in PSE 5.

[Byron Gale]

...Byron Gale ... can you replicate this problem in PSE5 from your Nikon D80 photos?...Paige,

I'll be happy to try -- just give me step-by-step what you want me to do.

Byron

[dj_paige]

Byron Gale: here are the step-by-step directions (http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=371878&postcount=3). Thanks!

John R. Ellis: Can think of a work-around?

All: another issue is that when I do a File->Export of a Raw photo, and the export creates a .jpg, the EXIF information disappears. Do you have this issue as well?

[Ric Cisson]

Sorry all, just got back from a photo shoot. Quick response, to questions, ACR 4.3.1 is what I am using, to process Canon 20D and Canon 1D MKII, then open editor in PSE5 and then save as either a jpg, tif, or PSD. As for PSE 6, I have not tried from the organizer. I have a 1D MKIII that I am using Canon DPP currrently to open my RAW files, from that particular camera only. I shoot 99% RAW, unless I am up against a time element then I shoot jpg. As a practice however, I import into LR 1.3.1 and process there, and then into either PSE 6 or CS3 for editing as needed and back to LR. You mentioned you are using ACR 4.4, that was recalled by Adobe shortly after release, could that be your problem? Just a thought.

[Chuck S.]

Ric: It looks like they fixed ACR 4.4, but not Lightroom 1.4. I downloaded the ACR 4.4 plug-in today, but I'm not sure I'll install it yet...

[Ric Cisson]

Yes, Chuck, it kind of looks like Adobe fixed ACR 4.4, but I am going to wait a little longer, because I have not, at least as of this morning, read anything on sites like Digital Outback Photo or the Imaging Resource, nor did I see anything on Adobe to lead me to believe that 4.4 had been re-released. So I am sort of standing pat with what I have.

[dj_paige]

All of my work uses ACR 4.3.1

[Ric Cisson]

Okay Paige and all, I tried it again with 2 files from this afternoon's shoot with an EOS 20D RAW format. Imported files from card to PSE 5 Organizer. Opening each file individually in the Organizer, I verified metadata in particular noting EXIF and IPTC. I then entered map for location, which updated GPS data in metadata. I then opened each file in ACR 4.3.1 and processed as normal and then opened in PSE 5 to edit. When saved back to the organizer as a PSD for one and a Tif for the 2nd, I rechecked the metadata. EXIF data was still there, IPTC data was still there and GPS data (map data) was still there. The only notes I made at the outset were "Priority Proofing" and they were still there in the notes section.

Additionally, I "exported" one RAW file to my Desktop and then brought it back in through the Organizer File>Get Photos>From Files and Folders>Desktop and it was still the same CR RAW file with the same metadata that was exported.

I do not have an explaination for why it seems to be working fine here and not for you...I have never heard of this issue prior to this...as previously stated, but because I provide instruction to many students I thought it curious, and since I am not an avid user of the organizer, and do all my importing as previously stated, in LR, I thought I would try it here and see if it is indeed an issue that I need to cover with my students. So far I am at a loss to explain what you are experiencing and I do not know how to respond further....but you can bet I will be watching this thread to see how it all turns out.

[Ric Cisson]

I just tried 3 new files in ACR 4.3.1 back into PSE6, following previously stated workflow, this time one Tif, one Jpg, and One PSD. All, this time in addition to map and notes had Keywords...I can report that all metadata is accurately displayed, all notes, all Keywords and Map info are all accurately displayed.

I then went one step further I processed a RAW from my 1D MkIII and saved back to PSE 6 (into the Organizer) as a PSD, checked all applicaple areas of concern in this discussion, then proceeded to select CS3 as my editor from the Organizer and then saved as a Tif back to the Organizer. Again, everything was there. So, what I am experiencing is a far cry from what you are experiencing.

Paige, you stated early on in the thread that you were using ACR 4.4 and then stated later in the thread that you were using 4.3.1. Could you verify that one more time. I have just gone through a number of online sources for Photoshop, and there has been no new issuance of ACR 4.4 since it was pulled by Adobe around the 17th of March that I can find.

I will still be watching this thread as it really has me at a loss.

[TonyW]

Ric: I think the issue is that if you add metadata to a RAW file in the Organizer it gets lost in the process of editing and saving in another format. If you save it as in another format first and then add the metadata it all works fine. From what you describe you added metadata after converting not before which should work OK.

Tony

[Byron Gale]

Byron Gale ... can you replicate this problem in PSE5 from your Nikon D80 photos?...
Byron Gale: here are the step-by-step directions (http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=371878&postcount=3). Thanks!...Paige,

I added a Caption and Note to a .NEF image, then placed it on the map.

I then opened it for editing - it opened in ACR, then in Editor - and I saved it as a .PSD image in a Version Set.

The .PSD has the Note, but not the Caption.
The .PSD does not appear on the map. However, when I expand the Version Set, the pin appears on the map.

Using PSE5 with ACR 4.3

Byron

[Ric Cisson]

All the testing I did, all notes/map(GPS) added to the metadata prior to sending RAW files to ACR 4.3.1 for processing. I did this through PSE5, no problems noted, then I did it through PSE6, no problems noted and then I imported into the PSE6 Organizer, processed a file through ACR 4.3.1, and then rather than editing again in PSE6, I saved a file as noted in my last post in the Organizer for PSE6 and then opened that processed file from the Organizer for editing in CS3 then saved back to the Organizer for PSE6, and again, no problem noted.

So, given what I know from my perspective and following the procedures that Paige gave us that he used, with my 3 Canon DSLR's, shooting RAW, processed as stated, with Windows XP Pro my OS, I know of no reason to suspect that RAW is a problem, at least from my actual experience here.

[dj_paige]

I think the problem is clearly camera specific, and unfortunately for me, Nikon D80 (my camera) is one of the formats where it doesn't work. Ric Cisson's camera is one of the formats where it does work. (Ric: someone else stated they were using ACR 4.4, not me, I have never downloaded it nor did I state that I was using it).

Ric, if you are kind enough to do one more test, I uploaded a Nikon D80 .nef file at one point to my web-site, you might want to try the same procedure on that file to see if you can reproduce the problem. The file is here (http://paiges-page.net/uploaded_images/DSC_4162.NEF). (Note: you have to right-click and select Save As to download it ... some people report that it downloads as a .tif, but you could simply change the filename to .nef, which is what the file really is)

[kimi_boo]

Or, in Organizer, you can select a RAW file, then Ctrl-H to open it in CS3 (if you've set the preference for a secondary editor in the Organizer preferences). It will then open in ACR, but it will be the full-blown ACR attached to CS3. And then on into CS3 for further magic!
I haven't finished reading the whole thread but I had to stop at this point and Kiss both Chuck and Byron!!!! Yeepeee!! I am going to try today!

http://bestsmileys.com/kissing2/3.gif

[Ric Cisson]

First of all my apologies Paige, it was John that brought up ACR 4.4.

In response to your request Paige, I downloaded your file saving as a .nef. I then firstly checked the metadata, noting captions and notes, and noted you had no IPTC data, but went forward from there by adding Map/GPS data to your file, before processing RAW in ACR 4.3.1 and processing as I have been for the purpose of trouble shooting this problem for you. I tested through PSE5 and a second time through PSE 6 and a third time through CS3. All three times when saved back to the Organizer, the Metadata, including notes and captions remained in tact on both the original and the version or copy files. However, and this confirms your problem, at least from here, the Map/GPS data was lost on the versions or copies, but remained with the Original .nef as added before I began processing.

So, now, I am wondering if it is indeed related to your .nef files from your camera, if there might be a firmware update from Nikon that you have not yet updated your camera with. I have not checked the Nikon website, but do note in your metadata that your camera firmware installed is Ver 1.1. Is this the current version?

I will continue to watch this thread.

[dj_paige]

Ric:

Yes, I am using the firmware version 1.1 for my Nikon D80. Byron Gale reports he has the same problem with his D80.

After you apply the metadata in the Organizer, do you see it in the .xmp file or in the .nef file, or neither (cause I honestly don't know where it should be located)? I don't see it in either file using Irfanview to examine the .nef file and using WordPad to look at the .xmp file. I have checked both before and after using the command Write Tags and Properties Info to File.

Are you using Windows XP or Vista for this testing? Are you using Photoshop Elements 5 or 5.0.2?

Byron:

when you say it appears on the map after you expand the version set ... if things worked the way I think they should work, both photos (.raw and copy .psd or .jpg) should appear on the map, but in my case only one ... the .nef ... appears on the map. I can tell that only one appears on the map because if you select the hand tool and then hold the mouse button down on the pin on the map, it will show you how many photos the pin represents (could be more than one).

[Ric Cisson]

Paige, I viewed the XMP file of the .nef file and the processed file that I did. In both, I do not see any GPS data, particularly suprising in that I am writing that to the .nef file prior to processing...yet when I check the map the file is there. The version files, the GPS data is also missing and is not reflected in the map. I am utilizing Wordpad to view XMP files.

My operating system is Windows XP Pro and I am using PSE 5.0.2, PSE 6.0 and CS3. It really is confounding, it appears to be unique to your .nef files.

I just checked NIkon website for firmware updates and the latest one is Ver 1.10 I am not sure it affects you as it is aimed apparently at Vista users.

Don't know if any of this helps you...hope it does somehow.:confused:

[dj_paige]

Thanks again for your help, Ric.

I agree this is confusing, especially since it is my understanding that when you enter things like captions, notes, map locations and tags via PSE Organizer methods, these are stored initially in the PSE data base (the .psa file in PSE5) and not in the .psd, .jpg or .xmp file. (You can later choose to write these items to the individual files, but you don't have to.) To confirm this, one only needs to examine my case, where the .xmp file contains none of the metadata I have entered into the PSE Organizer for a Raw photo, and yet the PSE Organizer remembers this metadata each and every time I open the Organizer and I look at the metadata for the raw photo via the PSE Show Properties command.

It shouldn't matter then, what camera the raw file comes from, as it is a simple matter of transferring data from one spot in the database that represents the original raw photo to another spot in the database that represents the .psd or .jpg version set copy. So for me to envision the current state of affairs, where it works for some cameras (like Ric's Canon 1D MkIII), but not others (like the Nikon D80), I would have to believe that someone programmed this transfer of data from one place in the database to another for specific cameras, and not for others — and this makes no sense to me (I have written a few computer programs in my time). I am totally dumbfounded here. Agog. Discombobulated. Incredulous.

Where does this leave me? Well, unless someone comes up with a solution, I need to develop a different workflow with Raw images compared to .jpg originals, to allow the metadata from Raw photos to be transferred "manually" if possible, with as little extra effort as possible. Not a pleasant thought, but my Raw Workflow could look something like this.

1. Import photos
2. Edit Raw photos, creating .jpg or .psd versions if necessary
3. Click on the two photos (raw and version) to select them
4. Enter caption (PSE allows you to enter a caption for several photos with one effort)
5. Drag both photos to the map (again, can be done in one effort)
6. Tag both photos (again, can be done in one effort)
7. Enter notes individually, as there doesn't seem to be a way to click on two photos and have the same note applied to both.

Where this breaks down is if I later choose to create another edit of the Raw photo and save it as .jpg or .psd, I have to repeat the process above. Had I started from a .jpg original, the new version would automatically receive the metadata. And from time to time, I do indeed add additional edits. Also, had I started from a .jpg original, I apply all of the metadata before I do any editing, so my workflow has been the reverse of what I have just proposed for Raw. Yikes. If I do a shoot that has both .jpg and raw photos, this could get quite confusing.

[johnrellis]

Note that the PSE 5 problem of disapearing metadata occurs with two different camera models, Nikon D80 and Canon G9, with ACR 4.3.1 and ACR 4.4. Two Nikon D80's and one Canon G9 have been tested, on three different installations of PSE 5.

[johnrellis]

It shouldn't matter then, what camera the raw file comes from, as it is a simple matter of transferring data from one spot in the database that represents the original raw photo to another spot in the database that represents the .psd or .jpg version set copy. So for me to envision the current state of affairs, where it works for some cameras (like Ric's Canon 1D MkIII), but not others (like the Nikon D80), I would have to believe that someone programmed this transfer of data from one place in the database to another for specific cameras, and not for others — and this makes no sense to me (I have written a few computer programs in my time). I am totally dumbfounded here. Agog. Discombobulated. Incredulous.

Unfortunately, my own experience, and that of others posting here and on the Adobe forums, is that PSE's handling of metadata is riddled with bugs, and that the bugs are often specific to specific cameras and scanners. It's not trivial to program metadata handling correctly, since there are multiple industry standards being "followed" to some degree or other by many different vendors. However, tools like "exiftool" manage to get it correct, so it's disappointing that the market leader in digital imaging can't.

[johnrellis]

Well, unless someone comes up with a solution, I need to develop a different workflow with Raw images compared to .jpg originals, to allow the metadata from Raw photos to be transferred "manually" if possible, with as little extra effort as possible.

Adding the metadata after you edit, as you suggest, is one possibility.

Another (klutzy) option is to use "exiftool -TagsFromFile" to copy the tags from the raw file to the edited .jpg or .psd every time you do an edit.

Another option is to upgrade to PSE 6 (currently $55 after rebate at Amazon).

[dj_paige]

Unfortunately, my own experience, and that of others posting here and on the Adobe forums, is that PSE's handling of metadata is riddled with bugs, and that the bugs are often specific to specific cameras and scanners. It's not trivial to program metadata handling correctly, since there are multiple industry standards being "followed" to some degree or other by many different vendors. However, tools like "exiftool" manage to get it correct, so it's disappointing that the market leader in digital imaging can't.

John, while I agree that there are plenty of reported bugs on this topic, I can't agree that "it's not trivial to program metadata handling correctly..." The metadata (in this case captions, notes, map locations and tags) goes from Adobe's own input screen in the PSE5 Organizer into Adobe's own proprietary database (the .psa file), where the make and model of the camera are stored, but are otherwise irrelevant. That's my point -- it makes no difference what the format of the input file is because the format of the input file isn't being used here.

[dj_paige]

Another option is to upgrade to PSE 6 (currently $55 after rebate at Amazon).

I don't think this is an option for me. I currently have a PSE5 setup, where this is the only noticeable bug. I don't want to trade this for PS6, where there are oodles of bugs reported. I don't consider PSE6, from what I have read, to be an improvement. I wouldn't touch it.

[TonyW]

Another option is to upgrade to PSE 6 (currently $55 after rebate at Amazon).

At least in my case (D80 NEF files) that doesn't solve the problem. If I add a Caption and Notes (Using Properties-General in the Organizer) and the Map Location then after opening in the Editor and saving as a JPEG or PSD file (not as a Version Set) only the Caption is retained. The xmp file does contain the Caption and Notes but not the GPS location. You can also find the Notes in the IPTC data for the JPEG file (File Info>Advanced>http://ns.adobe.com/album/1.0/>album:Notes:) but that doesn't seem to be read by the Organizer as Notes in Properties>General)

It gets worse. If I open the NEF file in Nikon Capture NX then there is no Caption so it would appear that the Caption data isn't being written by the Organizer to the NEF file (at least not in the place that Nikon expects to find it). And if I write a Caption to the NEF file in Capture NX then the Organizer doesn't see it.

So I come to the conclusion that there are too many non standard versions of adding metadata to RAW files floating around and they don't speak to each other - in other words it's a mess :(

Tony

[Chuck S.]

The camera manufacturers need to agree on a standard format for metadata storage - much as they should embrace DNG or another single standard format for RAW storage. Until they do, we're on our own... It's not reasonable to expect that the third-party software developers are going to keep all the various permutations sorted out.

[johnrellis]

John, while I agree that there are plenty of reported bugs on this topic, I can't agree that "it's not trivial to program metadata handling correctly..." The metadata (in this case captions, notes, map locations and tags) goes from Adobe's own input screen in the PSE5 Organizer into Adobe's own proprietary database (the .psa file), where the make and model of the camera are stored, but are otherwise irrelevant. That's my point -- it makes no difference what the format of the input file is because the format of the input file isn't being used here.

Yeah, I agree that keeping data straight between the PSE user interface and database isn't that difficult. Based on the bugs I've seen, I think Adobe gets hung up in trying to manage the flow of information between the database and the metadata of the files when images are being imported, exported, and edited. I'm surmising that PSE uses a lot of shared libraries among their applications for this kind of stuff, and that they don't have their best people working on PSE. So they have junior engineers using libraries that aren't well documented, and the result is a mess.

[johnrellis]

The camera manufacturers need to agree on a standard format for metadata storage - much as they should embrace DNG or another single standard format for RAW storage. Until they do, we're on our own... It's not reasonable to expect that the third-party software developers are going to keep all the various permutations sorted out.

So I come to the conclusion that there are too many non standard versions of adding metadata to RAW files floating around and they don't speak to each other - in other words it's a mess

I've only started learning about metadata in the last 10 months. But I think the industry metadata standards are in reasonably good shape: The EXIF standard provides an overall container for fields, the IPTC standard defines the meaning of standard fields, and XMP provides a more extensible framework. Adobe, to their credit, recognized that EXIF/IPTC was insufficient and pushed through XMP over the last many years.

However, the elementary bugs I see with PSE don't seem due to a confusion of too many ill-defined standards, but rather Adobe not implementing the existing agreed-upon standards correctly. A single programmer, Phil Harvey, can implement and maintain "exiftool" in his spare time and get the standards correct, but a team of engineers at Adobe can't.

For example, the part of the standards for recording XMP map locations is well defined, but PSE can't manage to read and write those fields. As another example, PSE 5 Organizer doesn't write the .xmp sidecar file for some files. These are rudimentary programming bugs.

The proliferation of raw file formats does make the task a little harder, but the ACR architecture seems pretty clean at isolating that messiness, and the camera manufacturers appear to be cooperative in helping Adobe plug their formats into ACR.

[michael eastman]

So, someone in this thread indicates the PSE 6 does not have any problems recognizing RAW from a D300?

[TonyW]

Sure it works with a D300 (I've opened them) but you need to update the Adobe Camera Raw to I think 4.3.1 or better (the latest I'm using is 4.4.1)

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3893

Tony

[Chuck S.]

John, the EXIF data for many Canon cameras has been non-standard for years. They've made some moves to correct that, but they don't seem to have any sense of urgency. The elephants in the room move slowly at times...

[Ric Cisson]

I have looked very carefully at all my different cameras, and I think what I am seeing is, as technology improves, and more information becomes available, the camera manufactures are expanding the metadata boundries. Consequently, this expansion is exceeding the capabilities, in some cases, of RAW processors, whether ACR or Capture One or what ever the processor, faster than the software writers can write updates.

Now in all fairness to the software writers for Adobe and others, and taking aim at the camera manufactures, I agree with most everyone. If the manufactures could be brought together and develop a common RAW format that everyone used, that would be one thing. But the discussion against that is the expansion of technology and how it is applied.

Currently new Digital P&S cameras are introduced at a very rapid rate, some would argue every 6 to 8 months. Digital SLR's have been introduced seemingly every 15 to 18 months. What I was hearing at PMA 08 in Las Vegas was that the manufactures, seeing the growth in SLR technology and the demand, now think that they will in the near future start introducing new dSLR's every 12 months. So, the question is, how much is technology going to expand, at what rate, how much data do we, the consumer wish the capablilities to record, and can the software writers keep up, and just how fast can the manufactures provide the data to the software writers to update the RAW processors, as long as not one manufacture agrees to standardize the format with the other players, it will remain "status quo" for the consumer.

That is my two cents worth...it will be a particular problem...as long as the playing field remains as is...and as long as John Q Public hungers for the technology.

[dj_paige]

Even more frustrating facts about RAW in PSE5

In the Organizer, click on a .NEF file. Select Edit->Auto Smart Fix in the Organizer. Now, the resulting .jpg has all of your metadata!! Nothing is lost!! It can be done!!

Oh ... except your photograph has changed, darn!

[johnrellis]

Depressing, but not surprising. Auto Smart Fix is implemented in the Organizer, not the Editor, and it's a different code path implemented by a different team (the Editor shares code with the full Photoshop).

[TonyW]

Even more frustrating facts about RAW in PSE5

In the Organizer, click on a .NEF file. Select Edit->Auto Smart Fix in the Organizer. Now, the resulting .jpg has all of your metadata!! Nothing is lost!! It can be done!!

Oh ... except your photograph has changed, darn!

That's interesting and suggested another way to do it. I did it in PSE6 and haven't tried in PSE5 but if you highlight the NEF file in the Organizer and then File>Export>As New File and select JPEG as the File Type, Photo Size Original, Quality as whatever you want and browse to where you want it (ie a folder called JPEG from RAW) the Organizer will do the conversion AND it preserves the Caption, GPS Info and Notes. File>Export will let you do a whole batch of RAW images so it's quite a good way to do a RAW to JPEG conversion.

If you want to Edit the NEF file first, edit as usual but just click Done rather than Open Image. Then the Exported JPEG will reflect the edits you've made in ACR.

Tony

PS. Just tried the same thing in PSE5 and it works there too.

[dj_paige]

That's interesting and suggested another way to do it. I did it in PSE6 and haven't tried in PSE5 but if you highlight the NEF file in the Organizer and then File>Export>As New File and select JPEG as the File Type, Photo Size Original, Quality as whatever you want and browse to where you want it (ie a folder called JPEG from RAW) the Organizer will do the conversion AND it preserves the Caption, GPS Info and Notes. File>Export will let you do a whole batch of RAW images so it's quite a good way to do a RAW to JPEG conversion.

If you want to Edit the NEF file first, edit as usual but just click Done rather than Open Image. Then the Exported JPEG will reflect the edits you've made in ACR.

Tony

Sorry to disappoint, Tony. I tried File->Export->As New File in PSE5 under Windows XP Home (SP2)

Here's what I observe when I try it using File->Export on a .nef (or several .nef files)

Files are created, IPTC intact and complete. EXIF incomplete, GPS is present in the EXIF but the camera EXIF metadata (exposure, aperture, ISO Speed, etc.) not present. When I view the newly created .jpg photos in whatever folder they exist in via the Windows Explorer, many (but not all) of the photos have an incorrect date picture taken, according to Windows Explorer. When I upload these pics to Flickr, similar results, Flickr thinks the date picture taken is incorrect on most (but not all), even though Irfanview and Exiftool both seem to report the correct date. This indicates to me that somehow, in addition to leaving out the camera EXIF metadata, there is something wrong with the EXIF. Try to copy parts of the EXIF from the .nef file to the new .jpg via Exiftool -TagsFromFile and I get an error: "Error: Truncated ExifIFD directory". Clearly something is quite wrong here. The only way I can copy the EXIF from the .NEF to the new .jpg is to first have Exiftool remove all of the EXIF from the .jpg (including the GPS, which I want) and then write a totally new EXIF from the .nef (which doesn't include the GPS)

Side note: if anyone can tell me what that Exiftool error means and/or how I can fix it, please contact me via private e-mail here at Elements Village.

[TonyW]

Paige:
I see what you mean - it does seem to lose some of the Camera Data. As far as I can tell it treats the Exported JPEG as though ACR was the camera so the EXIF data now contains the the edits made in ACR (or the default ones if it wasn't editied) but in doing so manages to lose some of the original camera data. I guess you can't win :(. It does solve one problem for me though as for some things I do the only thing I want to preserve is the GPS data and at least I now know how to do that.

Tony

[johnrellis]

I see what you mean - it does seem to lose some of the Camera Data.

PSE 5 also loses some of the metadata of a Canon G9 raw file. Oh well...

[dj_paige]

If you convert the .nef to .dng and then import into the PSE Organizer, then the notes and captions and tags are preserved when you create a .jpg or .psd, but the map location still doesn't get transferred. I guess that's an improvement over the .nef handling, where only the notes and tags get transferred — but it takes extra work and disk space to create the .dng files.

[dj_paige]

More playing around:

With either ExifTool (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/%7Ephil/exiftool/) or ExifToolGUI (http://freeweb.siol.net/hrastni3/foto/exif/exiftoolgui.htm), you can write captions, tags (keywords) and GPS locations to a Nikon D80 .NEF file. If you then import this file (which now has tags, captions and GPS locations inside it) into the PSE Organizer, PSE recognizes that information. Further, if you edit the file, and save a .jpg or .psd, the .jpg or .psd also contains the captions, tags and GPS information.

This is different than if you enter the Tags, Captions and GPS location via the PSE Organizer tools, then the edited .jpg or .psd only contains the tags, not the captions or GPS info. In this case, "Write Tag and Properties Info to Files" seems to have no effect on a Nikon D80 .NEF file.

So, clearly, this information can be written to a Nikon D80 .NEF file in a way that it gets passed on to edits, but the programming inside of PSE fails to do so for some reason.

You could use Exiftool or ExifToolGUI to enter all of your metadata — but the interface isn't as nice as the one in PSE. In PSE, for example, you can enter captions for several photos at once, I didn’t see a way to do this in ExifToolGUI. There is also no way in ExifTool or ExifToolGUI to determine the GPS coordinates, you can't simply drag the photo onto a map as you can do within PSE, but if you know the co-ordinates, you could type them in and save them in the file. This would be an unpleasant workflow.

So the bottom line, to me, is that everything you want to do with a Nikon .NEF file’s metadata is doable, except that PSE didn't program it properly, so you can't do it in PSE. And for me, I'm going back to .jpg originals, where I don't have this metadata problem for now.