Slowdown using keyframe markers.

[Tom Blizzard]

For some strange reason, I'm experiencing a slow down when I move the keyframe markers on my timeline. For example, if I move a marker just a bit on the timeline, it takes 15 seconds before the program will let me do any other editing. This happens more when the whole show has been rendered. Untill I render the show there is no time lag at all.

Any suggestions??

[Chuck Engels]

Hi Tom,
What are your source files and what version of Premiere Elements do you have?
Are you using Windows Vista or XP? What CPU does your computer have and how much RAM?

[ATR]

Tom,

My recollection is that you are using Premiere Elements 3.

I have tried this with Premiere Elements 2 and 4 and have not encountered the problem that you described. Do you find that the slow down is just confined to changing keyframing markers or is your system slowed down for other Premiere Elements functions as well when this happens?

Also, I could not tell from what you wrote...is this slow down just in moving a keyframing marker for an existing keyframe or is there a slow down in creating and adding a keyframe to pre-existing ones?

Have you been defragmenting your system lately? When this happens, are you at a stage where system resources are being pushed to limit...RAM as well as free hard drive space? Have you taken a recent look at your virtual memory sets?

That is a start.

ATR

[Tom Blizzard]

OK let's see if I can answer in the right order.
1. Chuck, the files are as captured from my two Canon GL2 s.
2. Using 3.0.2, XP, AMD 5200+ Duo core, 2 gig of ram.
__________________________________________________ _____________

3. ATR, you have a good memory .:)

4. I can grab the keyframe marker and move it normally, but after that there is a 15 second pause or wait for the change to take place in the program so that I can move on to the next edit. I can do nothing till then. Well, I can go ahead and make some other changes, but it is not untill 15 seconds later that they all jump into place as I've moved them. Kind of hard to explain.... sort of a delayed reaction. I don't like to rush or push the program though, so I just wait.

5. No slowdown in making a new keyframe marker, but after the marker is made,in place, and the action made to the video, then there is a 15 second delay before I can do anything else with the program.

6. Yes, defraged, double checked for spyware, golly, last night I even went so far as to "RESTORE" my computer and the first thing I did was to reinstall Premiere....... no luck. Same thing.

7. One intersting note, back when I first put the two video tracks and the one audio track into this project, with no rendering, everything worked just fine. The first time I did a rendering of the partially editied show, that's when I first noticed the slowdown.

8. To add to the mystery, my wife's computer, 2 gig ram, Intel duo core processor, XP, does the same thing. Not the same project though....... It did not do it when we first installed Premiere, it came after several projects.

My goodness, this is so strange. Sounds like I'm making this up..... :rolleyes: I'm not....

Oh, BTW I always shut down and restart my computer when I use Premiere to be sure all the ram is ready to go.....

[Chuck Engels]

Tom, Try deleting the render files to start with.
This can be a long list of things starting with not enough Virtual Memory.
You can also try restarting while holding the CTRL+ALT+SHIFT keys to clear the cache and preferences which sometimes gets corrupted and causes similar problems.

[ATR]

According to one of SG's FAQs, just the Shift and Control Keys are involved in this flushing of the Preferences.

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.3bbdd316

When did the Alt get thrown in there with Shift and Control? For versions beyond version 2?

ATR

[Chuck Engels]

:o Sorry, my goof

Just Ctrl + Shift, although I don't think holding down the ALT key will have any ill effects.

[Tom Blizzard]

Progress!! OK, first the Ctrl+shift thing did not work, however, I went looking around and I found this:
Under the heading "Clip", I went down to
"Video Options". Then, under that, I found something called "Field Options".
( I had no idea what that ment. Well,,,,, I just looked on pages 107 and 170 of my favorite reference book and I know a little more than I did 5 minutes ago...... thanks Chuck. :) )
OK, under "Field Options" I clicked on "Interlace Consecutive Frames", went back to my project and now everything has been unrendered, but solved my problem. The keyframe markers work great now. No delay, no problems.

Can you tell me why??? Also, one other question. It seems that we are told to render often when we are editing a project. This makes me think I should not render till I'm through editing.

Should or would this have anything to do with the fact that I am using the widescreen settings for this project? One of the first things I did when I started editing this project was to go to "Interpret footage" and select NTSC widescreen 16:9.

Thanks again Chuck and ATR......

[ATR]

Tom,

More questions.
1. How did you get rid of the Rendered Files....Timeline Menu/Delete Rendered Files?
2. Under Edit/Preferences/Scratch Discs...Where do you have your scratch files directed....same drive as project or external hard drive? If external hard drive, is the external hard drive formatted NTFS or FAT32 and how many GB??
3. You are saying that selecting Field Options/Interlace Consecutive Frames PLUS unrendered resolved your Keyframe Marker Adjustment issue. What happened to the issue if you JUST unrendered, NO Field Options?

As for Rendering, you realize that during the process temporary files are generated (hard drive space used). The aim of the process is to give you are better Preview so you can get a better idea of what you have before continuing. The folders containing these temporary files (located where you have the scratch files directed) are emptied when you close the project.

Right now I do not see the relationship of "Interlace Consecutive Frames" to the issue. What I think that I see is a problem with system resources. Just an add on....I still think that the Interpret Footage is an overkill as I mentioned in one of your other threads. BUT, if it works, do not mess with it at this time.

I will watch for your response as well as think about this some more.

ATR

[Tom Blizzard]

Good morning ATR,

You sure seem to know your stuff......thanks again for sticking with me on this. I'll try and answer your questions in your quote. Otherwise I'll miss something... Remember now a lot of the things in this program are new to me.

Tom,

More questions.
1. How did you get rid of the Rendered Files....Timeline Menu/Delete Rendered Files? Well, the "green" line on the timeline, for the whole project, went back to "red" when I clicked on the "Interlace Consecutive Frames" choice.

2. Under Edit/Preferences/Scratch Discs...Where do you have your scratch files directed....same drive as project or external hard drive? Yes, an external.If external hard drive, is the external hard drive formatted NTFS or FAT32 and how many GB?? Yes, it is NTFS and it is a 500 GB HD. I have around 100 GB free.

3. You are saying that selecting Field Options/Interlace Consecutive Frames PLUS unrendered resolved your Keyframe Marker Adjustment issue. What happened to the issue if you JUST unrendered, NO Field Options? Well, you are probably going to think this is funny.... but HOW do I just unrender the timeline?? I've never done that alone.:o

As for Rendering, you realize that during the process temporary files are generated (hard drive space used). The aim of the process is to give you are better Preview so you can get a better idea of what you have before continuing. Yes, I have read that and I can see a difference in the monitor. The folders containing these temporary files (located where you have the scratch files directed) are emptied when you close the project.

Right now I do not see the relationship of "Interlace Consecutive Frames" to the issue. What I think that I see is a problem with system resources. Should I add another gig of ram?? Just an add on....I still think that the Interpret Footage is an overkill as I mentioned in one of your other threads. BUT, if it works, do not mess with it at this time.

I will watch for your response as well as think about this some more.

ATR

I'm learning so much here. You are a great teacher. thanks for being so patient. You should have helped Chuck with his already excellent book.....;)

By the way, ATR, I just went back and rerendered the whole project and checked the marker time lag issue. It has returned again .......... :rolleyes:

[Chuck Engels]

By interlacing all of the footage you only helped a symptom but that can cause you other problems later if you were to burn to DVD which needs to be deinterlaced for TV viewing.

Interlacing simply made the current render files of no use, when you render again the problem returns. You can go to the project folder and delete all of the render files, that will give you the same results ;)

The render files are created to give you a clean/smooth preview of an edited clip. If you add a transition or effect you need to render before they will play smoothly. When you render the clip Premiere Elements creates a render file that it plays when you come to that point in the video.

Just because you render the timeline should not cause such a delay. I am going to send a note to a friend at Adobe and see if he can help with this one.

[ATR]

Tom,

I have some more thoughts for you to check out. Here goes…

To get rid of the Rendered Files in the Folder that you set up via Scratch Disc (Edit/Preferences/Scratch Disc), you can go to the Premiere Elements Timeline Menu and hit Delete Rendered Files. When you do that, the rendered files are deleted (gone) from that folder, and you will see a Red Line above the Timeline indicating that the Timeline content will need to be rendered to get a good preview. Remember, at this point there are no more Rendered Files in that scratch files folder.

The big “But” is, when you hit Interlace Consecutive Frames, the Green Line went to Red. But, all this did was tell you that the Timeline needed rendering again. It did not get rid of the Rendered Files that already existed and had been giving you the “OK/No Need To Render To Get Good Preview” Green Line over the Timeline.

This is what I did to prove this point:
1. Opened a new project, put a 1 min/368 KB wmv video on the Timeline, and checked the Scratch Files Folder to verify that it was empty at that point.
2. In Premiere Elements, rendered by pressing Enter Key on the main keyboard and noted Green Line over Timeline.
3. Went back to the Scratch Files Folder and noted that now there was ONE Preview File there, 42 MB.
4. Went back to Premiere Elements and added an Effect which caused the Green Line over the Timeline to become Red. Rendered again to get the Green Line over the Timeline.
5. Went back to the Scratch Files Folder and noted that now there were TWO Preview Files, each 42 MB.

More questions:
1. What happens if you make your keyframe adjustments via the Properties Panel instead of nudging the keyframe markers on the Timeline?
2. Just how big is this project when this keyframe marker adjustment problem sets in…from the start, in the middle, at the end when the project is fully “loaded” content/effects/transition-wise?

To be continued……….

ATR

[ATR]

Tom,

Add on....

Did you ever indicate whether is slow down is specific to the Keyframe Marker Adjustment?

ATR

[Chuck Engels]

From Adobe:
Delete the prefences folder, it is in
C:\Documents and Settings\YOUR NAME\Application Data\Adobe\Premiere Elements\3.0 it will be rebuilt next time you start PE3. Note it might be a hidden file on your PC and so you need to go to into Tools>Folder Options>View and select Show hidden files and folders and delete the whole Premiere Elements folder.

Also, where are your scratch disks pointed to, an internal or external drive? If they are pointed to an external drive try pointing them to an internal drive and see if the problem goes away.

[ATR]

CE

BTW, Tom has already indicated that he has the scratch files directed to external hard drive. It is a point that he could focus in on after he weighs all the suggestions. After some more information comes in from Tom and until the verdict comes in, I am favoring a resource problem.

When you flush the preferences (Shift Control, when opening program), are not you doing the same thing as deleting the preferences as suggested by Adobe via your last post?

We have given Tom a lot of food for thought and am looking forward to the outcome...success by whatever route.

ATR

[Chuck Engels]

I would hope he will try the two suggestions from Adobe asap, the external drive is most likely the culprit. There could be a few reasons for this, slow disk access, bad USB connection or better yet overcrowded USB connection. I have not used an external drive for anything but my actual video files, all other scratch disk files are on a second internal or primary internal drive.

[Tom Blizzard]

I'm working on it now..... more soon..

OK been working.....
Chuck,
I went in and I believe I did what you said. Golly I found all kinds of stuff from deleted projects from way back. I could not find a folder titles "Preferences" but there were all kinds of old stuff from old projects that I deleted.
Next, I went into "Preferences" in the toolbar at the top, under "Edit", and when I clicked on "Media" It shows the Cache to be in my C drive. I then clicked on the "Clean" button.

Then I went down to the Scratch Discs section and changed everything under that
heading from my external drive to my C drive.

After all that, I went back to my show and checked for the problem. Show is rendered and the problem still is there.......

so I went back up to the "Timeline" selection on the toolbar and clicked on "Delete Render Files".... Again, the problem is gone.....

OH yes, ATR, one of your earlier questions was about setting keymarkers with the "Properties"
section. Made no difference. When the show has been rendered, problem still is there.

[Tom Blizzard]

Chuck, ATR and anyone else who might be remotely interested in this drama.

This morning, based on Chuck's comments, I am moving all the files associated with this show, (all 80GB), from my external drive over to my C drive.:eek:

[Tom Blizzard]

;)Well, it made no difference......... Everything is now on the C drive. The problem continues when rendered, but no problem when unrendered.

[Chuck Engels]

Tom, you don't need to move the files you just need to change the Scratch Disk location in Preferences. Go to the main menu in Premiere Elements Edit/Preference/Scratch Disks and change them to an internal drive. They are probably 'Same As Project' which is on your external drive. That way all new render files will still go to the external drive. Either that or move the entire project to your internal drive, just do a "Save As" and put the new project on the internal drive and work with that project instead.

[ATR]

Give up is not in my dictionary. Retreat maybe, but not yet.

First, I got somewhat confused by CE directives. So, CE, for me if not for Tom, is this what you want him to do??? (I am basing this on what you said was one of Adobe's suggestions...essentially direct the scratch files to an internal drive. To compile with that, all you have to do it
Edit Menu/Preferences/Scratch Disks
In each of the categories (Video Previews, Audio Previews, Media Cache): browse to a place like My Documents on the C drive. Create a New Folder (PE4) for the first browsed category, then change the scratch files (via Browse) for the other categories to go to this PE4 folder which is located in My Documents).

When you get into the Project, just before you test out your keyframe marker situation, I would be sure to set a "ground zero" by getting rid of all rendered files as described previously. Then go about the task of evaluating the situation after the scratch disc re-route.

At this point, I would think that overloading the C: drive may be counter productive. So, we need to be careful with what is going on. Try this as requested by CE & Adobe. If it works great, if not I will return with more questions. Sampling:

First, just what are you keyframing (what is linked to those keyframe markers)...video track: Image Control, Motion, Opacity; audio track: Volume, Balance??

Second, did you say when this problem sets in...at the very beginning when there are few MBs invested in the Timeline or when the Timeline is "loaded"?

Third, it may be time to examine the Timeline content to see if you can determine if there is anything else that you can associate with the problem, like certain effects, transitions,... Right now you see only a link between the problem and unrendered and rendered.

To be continued....

ATR

[Tom Blizzard]

Chuck,
I did that last night. See my 7:45 pm post from yesterday....
made no difference...

[Chuck Engels]

Sorry Tom, I missed one of your posts.
In answer to one of your questions about the preferences folder;

C:\Documents and Settings\YOUR NAME\Application Data\Adobe\Premiere Elements\3.0Delete the whole folder, not the preferences folder but the 3.0 folder (that is the preferences folder).


This is getting to be a strange one, I though for sure that moving the scratch disk for render files would make a difference. Your system is good enough that you shouldn't have these problems as far as I can tell. I will contact Adobe again and see if they have any other suggestions.

[Tom Blizzard]

First, just what are you keyframing (what is linked to those keyframe markers)...video track: Image Control, Motion, Opacity; audio track: Volume, Balance??
I have Camera A in video 2 and Camera B in video 1. I also have the audio from an iriver, converted to WAV file by Audicity, as the sound in audio 3. I did keep audio 1 and 2 to sync. All I'm doing is crossfading from Cam A to Cam B and back at various times during the show.

Second, did you say when this problem sets in...at the very beginning when there are few MBs invested in the Timeline or when the Timeline is "loaded"? When it is loaded.... 48 minute project.

Third, it may be time to examine the Timeline content to see if you can determine if there is anything else that you can associate with the problem, like certain effects, transitions,... Right now you see only a link between the problem and unrendered and rendered. Yes.

To be continued....
ATR
Thanks...............

[Tom Blizzard]

Your system is good enough that you shouldn't have these problems as far as I can tell. I will contact Adobe again and see if they have any other suggestions.
Thanks Chuck for your concern and interest.
I will go back and delete as you suggested.

[Chuck Engels]

Hi Tom,

Does the problem happen in a new project (with all files and settings on a local drive)? This feels like the program is having a hard time referencing the preview/conformed/peak files. So if everything is local and OK, then it could be a bad project file.

Other things to check:

Is it a particular effect or keyframe type, or any keyframe?
Are the waveforms showing on the audio tracks?
Are these audio or effect keyframes that you are moving?
What does your timeline look like? One big clip or lots of a little clips? Lots of effects and transitions, or only a few?This is the latest from Adobe, if you could answer the questions I will pass them along. Hopefully we will reach a solution quickly :)

[Tom Blizzard]

Thanks Chuck,
It seems to be most noticable with the keyframes. Tonight, on a new project, I cut out several short parts of a clip and there was no delay.
I put in some keyframe markers and pulled the opacity up and down just as a test. Everything wroked fine even when rendered. This makes me think that the older project is corrupted...... ???



Let's see now.... did I answer all your questions?

Audio keyframes do fine. No slowdown with them.

It is most noticeable when I'm using two video tracks and I want to crossfade from one to the other....ONLY WHEN RENDERED. Does fine when not rendered. Strange and weird.

Answer to your last question; This pertains to the orginal project from last week. One 40 minute clip in video 1 and same in video 2. Two cameras were used. I used audio from an i river and got everything in sync. No effects, no transitions in the show. Just keyframes to cross fade from video track 1 to video track 2 and vice versa.

Chuck,,, Thanks for your efforts.

Regards, Tom B.

[Chuck Engels]

Hi Tom,
Definitely could be a corrupt project file. I will send the responses back to Adobe and see what they have to say.
Thanks for hanging in there :)

[Chuck Engels]

Well hopefully this will be the end of the problem Tom;

It sounds like it could be a long clip problem. What format are his video clips?

If he’s using 2x 40 minute clips in the timeline, this starts to become unsurprising, especially if there’s any MPEG format involved. Really, he should be using shorter clips. Single long clips are actually harder to manage than many small clips. This wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen PRE slow down when dealing with long MPEG clips.

Also, why is he not using transitions? Overall, it sounds like he’s doing things the hard way. (Work smarter, not harder!)

(I understand if he’s trying to sync two cameras from the same event, it can be a little tricky in Premiere Elements. Premiere Pro has some more tools for this. In PRE he’ll probably need to figure out the sync manually then cut up the clips as necessary.)

Like they say, you should really be cutting the clips and inserting transitions between your tracks rather than keyframing. I missed that completely. I have a tutorial that will help with inserting transitions while using multiple tracks (at muvipix), it will make your life a lot easier than continually keyframing the opacity :)

The tutorial is not free but may be worth it for you;
http://muvipix.com/products.php?maincat_id=7&subcat_id=6
"The Cross Dissolve Transition".

The other suggestion would be to split the clips up into manageable pieces or to create a few smaller projects. Give those ideas a try and let us know if it is working better.

[ATR]

Tom,

Good work on your exploration of your Timeline content.

You mentioned cutting out several short parts of a clip and your issue was absent. What exactly was in those removed clips? (I read your report as "you did not remove entire clip, just parts.")

If removing just certain sections of a video clip did the job, would it be file corruption or rather conflicts within the removed segments that would be the cause? Depending on the feedback from Adobe via CE, it might be worthwhile to look into the specifics of the removed segments and their relationship to the whole clip.

I will be watching for your progress.

ATR

[Tom Blizzard]

Also, why is he not using transitions? Overall, it sounds like he’s doing things the hard way. (Work smarter, not harder!)


Wait, wait... does this mean the you can move or fade from video one track to video two track without key frames?? Using transitions??? Wow, I don't understand....I thought transitions were used between clips within the same video track...:eek:

[ATR]

Tom,

You are not confined to transitions between two clips on single track.

Take a look at "Single Sided Transitions in the Timeline" in the Help Section of your Premiere Elements 3.

Try it on a very simple example:
Place video on Track 2 and apply the Cross Dissolve transition just to its left edge (Single Sided Transition).
Have video below on Track 1 and position its beginning accordingly in relation to the transition placed in the video of Track 2.

Check out the Special Effects section of this tutorial in my favorite not for kids only site.
http://www.adobe.com/education/digkids/lessons/only_you.html

Please let us know if all this works for you.

ATR

[Tom Blizzard]

ATR,
What a great site. I've just begun to look. :)

Another question:
Try it on a very simple example:
Place video on Track 2 and apply the Cross Dissolve transition just to its left edge (Single Sided Transition).
Have video below on Track 1 and position its beginning accordingly in relation to the transition placed in the video of Track 2.

Now remember, I'm 65 years young, relatively new to Premier, and I can't multitask very well. I was so happy to be able to turn on both GL2 cams and leave them on. That made it so easy to line up the exact starting times and then put the digital recording in audio 3 and sync everything up.

Key frames have made it fantastic to be able to pull one scene into the project and and push another out and then do the opposite when the situation came about.
Golly, I don't think I understand. :confused: Are you saying that it is better to cut the the video 1 and video 2 tracks up into small clips, separate them, then indvidually position each short clip from Cam A and Cam B at the spot where I might want to insert a crossfade transition and show that clip in the project? Wouldn't all the media still be on the timeline?

As you can see, I am a bit confused...... :D
Thanks again. Tom

[ATR]

Tom,

Just to let you know that I have seen your last post, that I have been working on a response, and that my comments should be ready for you to review probably sometime tomorrow or sooner.

ATR

[ATR]

Tom,

I have re-read and re-thought post by post in this thread and…

My last post was just an attempt to point out two different transitions placement approaches (double sided/single sided) and in no way was intended to endorse any previous recommendations by anyone else to replace your Opacity keyframing with cut up video to which transitions could be applied. This is the Help material on Transitions that I wanted you to review (I was thinking multi tracks.)

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremiereElements/4.0/help.html?content=WSDFBA8495-1B3C-4888-BC8C-990DC6924700.html

I would ask you to re-look at the “Work smarter, not harder” remark and consider if Opacity keyframing might be the smarter way to go when doing multi camera video editing with Premiere Elements 4 (in spite of the only 15 sec lag issue which seems to occur at the end of your project). Do you get great results with Opacity keyframing? If only a 15 sec lag time is involved, is it worth the price?

Premiere Pro CS3, not Premiere Elements 4, does offer a Multi Camera Editing Tool. If you are going to do a lot of this type of editing, you may want to take the time to download a trial version and see if it works for you. I find it interesting that Premiere Pro CS3 encourages you to work in sequences to avoid the management problem of multi clips. Contrast that with the CE Adobe PE4 advice to cut video into smaller components and apply transitions.

I looked at several Premiere Pro CS3 video tutorials on this subject. I think the best that I found was the one by Terry White
http://creativesuitepodcast.com/index.php?post_id=233202

In the final analysis, I am still not sure why you observe this problem in PE4. You mentioned somewhere along the line that your wife has observed similar problems using Premiere Elements 4 with her computer. Is she dealing with the same types of project as you? If not, how do they differ?

Maybe it is because I am not smart enough to know better, but, if I did not want to invest in Premiere Pro CS3, right now I would use Opacity keyframing in this type of a PE4 project if it gave me good results. But try transitions as well as your Opacity keyframing and see what works best for you.

ATR

[ATR]

Add on...

I tried to get that PE4 Help link to open at the page I had intended....it did not.

So, what I had in mind was under:

Applying transitions
Applying Transitions to clips
Apply Transitions
Apply a single-sided transition in the Timeline

ATR