B&W Conversion - Newsletter v4n8

[JulieM]

One of the things I really want to learn to do is to make effective conversions of digital images to black & white. Chris Beasley (SeeBee) has a great tutorial in the newest newsletter on this. I thought I'd post my before and after in hopes of receiving comments and criticism on it. What could I do to improve it?

After:

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1oMywidNWGL3foQKRMfhMjNSRPdX_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1oMywidNWGL3foQKRMfhMjNSRPdX)

Before:

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1UdOFD2q4WkbHW2rcWrx1622w1lIRa_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1UdOFD2q4WkbHW2rcWrx1622w1lIRa)

[Not4wood]

I don't think you need to improve the image at all. I like it very much. My question is where and how are you going to print it?

[JulieM]

C'mon Mark. That's probably the shortest post I've seen you make! :D You must have some suggestions!

But, thank you... :p

[mrod]

Well, OK, Julie, I'll give it a shot. I like the photo and the subject, but would it be possible to get a bit more contrast between the building and the sky? The grays seem a bit too similar to my eye. If the sky were darker, for example, the building might pop out a bit more.

Just my opinion there...

Mike

[JulieM]

I think you're probably right, Mike. I'm going to have another go at it tomorrow morning when the kids are at school...

[kimi_boo]

Julie... I just read this great article about black and white sunsets. He was using his dodge and burn tools to selectively adjust areas in the clouds. They were breathtaking! Try that on your sky.
:)

[JulieM]

Thanks, Kimi. I'll try that too.

[deedeeO]

Hi Julie,
I would play with the curves and or levels a bit to brighten it up a bit...then increase the contrast a bit...give it more a grunge look by doing some color burn at a low percentage around the edges of the building the windows....its brick...looks too smooth for brick... just my suggestion... but the foundation of your conversion is very well done. the suggestions I mentioned are just for fun and play....;)

[Not4wood]

C'mon Mark. That's probably the shortest post I've seen you make! :D You must have some suggestions!

But, thank you... :p

Uh oh, someones been watching????? :twisted:

OK, since your going to reshoot it now you can watch your sky and lighting to see how it looks under other conditions. Bring sandwiches with you :D. Now, also since your are going back howbout shooting it in both Raw and B&W to have more options when you edit them in the puter...
At least this will give you a starting point........


Is that enough suggestions??

[JulieM]

Uh oh, someones been watching????? :twisted:

OK, since your going to reshoot it now you can watch your sky and lighting to see how it looks under other conditions. Bring sandwiches with you :D. Now, also since your are going back howbout shooting it in both Raw and B&W to have more options when you edit them in the puter...
At least this will give you a starting point........


Is that enough suggestions??

That's better! I was feeling left out with the short reply! :D

I'm not able to reshoot since it was a 5 1/2 hour drive away. But, I do shoot in RAW so I'm going to go back to the drawing board and see what I can do with it...

[JulieM]

Thanks, Denise. Will play later today...

[Joe M]

Julie I want to start by saying that is a fantastic photo and a great image for BW.

I recently bought a book with 400 of Ansel Adams BW photos. I am obsessed with making BW's. Of all the methods I've read about; I have settled on the LAB method in CS3. Though I have a long way to go before I'm completely happy with the outcome every time.

Here are two examples, one with the LAB method and the other with the BW Adjustment in CS3.

LAB

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1Bzrv68OX0hnLkC12MsdcWcKNI778u0_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1Bzrv68OX0hnLkC12MsdcWcKNI778u0)

BW CS3 Adjustment with slight tinting.

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1B4HJ9mCWkRKzwFyTxs14iL89ChT6_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1B4HJ9mCWkRKzwFyTxs14iL89ChT6)

[lisabee]

Julie,

after the B&W conversion, try the curves.
Personally I don't get on too well with dodge and burn, but I do like the results achieved with curves.

Joe, I like your conversions very much :).

Lisa

[JulieM]

Joe, your results are both really good. I've always loved Ansel Adams work too. One of my all-time favorites of his is "Moonrise over Hernandez". I should go to the library and see if I can find a book with his photographs.

Lisa, thanks for the suggestions about curves. I'll try that too.

Thanks everyone, for all the suggestions here. I will try hard to work on redoing the conversion in the next few days. It was a beautiful day here in Ottawa for a photo expedition so I spent the morning out photographing for my 366 Photos project and don't have much time left before the kids get home from school...

[JulieM]

Here is a new version. This one using LAB mode in SmartCurve and then dodged and burned. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Further comments most welcome...

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1zvskt3T9zTYy41QRP4gXhOF3PE4b_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1zvskt3T9zTYy41QRP4gXhOF3PE4b)

[Not4wood]

Haha, now thats the spirit. I really like the bricks and the building itself. Great tonal quality.

OK, now the big question that I think I asked previously that everybody ignored me :twisted:. How are you gonna print this B&W?? In todays printers unless you have that other Ink Cartridges of the Photo Black and Grey its very difficult to get a good B&W Print. At least I haven't seen one.

[JulieM]

Haha, now thats the spirit. I really like the bricks and the building itself. Great tonal quality.

OK, now the big question that I think I asked previously that everybody ignored me :twisted:. How are you gonna print this B&W?? In todays printers unless you have that other Ink Cartridges of the Photo Black and Grey its very difficult to get a good B&W Print. At least I haven't seen one.

Interesting question, Mark. My HP is loaded with a two cartridges, one color and one photo color. (The color one can be swapped for a black one if not printing photos.) But, I haven't really tried producing any black and whites at home. I would assume a commercial lab would be able to do it? I hope someone will chime in with some advice on printing...

[GaryK]

Hmmm.. just noticed this thread.:D

Julie, did you take that in W'loo? Where did you find the building?

[Chuck S.]

Julie, that would be a fun image to play with in Lightroom. The image can be 'converted' to grayscale (HSL/Color/Grayscale section of develop) and then the Adjust Grayscale Mix by dragging in photo used to darken the sky. Not as sophisticated as the techniques in Elements being proposed/demonstrated, but worth a try just for the education value!

As a quick example, just two tweaks of the grayscale mix:

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1h1FXnIjAVDZesMFqWmgK8Rf2W70Yq1_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1h1FXnIjAVDZesMFqWmgK8Rf2W70Yq1)

Edit: But.....it didn't bring out the clouds as your most recent one did. Back to the drawing board....

[Chuck S.]

Just one more and I go away....:o

Here's one using a user preset in Lightroom called "Matt's Nostalgic Effect (1)". It's not quite black and white, but...

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1MLD5ri9S14BE5Q9Zm4OquBsEC1Sva0_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1MLD5ri9S14BE5Q9Zm4OquBsEC1Sva0)

[Joe M]

Thank You Julie.

Lisa thanks, and I completely agree with you about the curves adjustment being the last thing you do. If I'm doing a BW conversion, in RGB the last thing I do is a Curve that looks like the picture below. I got this from Scott Kelby's book.

May look slightly different for each photo.

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1cvxncxlZNlLhDDdQOLcPAAY8Bu5g41_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1cvxncxlZNlLhDDdQOLcPAAY8Bu5g41)

[JulieM]

Hmmm.. just noticed this thread.:D

Julie, did you take that in W'loo? Where did you find the building?

Hi Gary,

Yes, it's in Waterloo. Somewhere downtown across from a train station. Don't ask me to find it again or I'd get lost for another 90 minutes! :D:D:D I'm not going back there until I get a GPS or at least a good map. There seemed to be a lot of interesting old buildings especially along the railroad tracks but this one was easily accessible because of the parking lot at the station. I wished I'd had more time to explore...

[JulieM]

Just one more and I go away....:o

Here's one using a user preset in Lightroom called "Matt's Nostalgic Effect (1)". It's not quite black and white, but...

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1MLD5ri9S14BE5Q9Zm4OquBsEC1Sva0_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1MLD5ri9S14BE5Q9Zm4OquBsEC1Sva0)

That looks good, Chuck. Lightroom is so easy for this sort of thing. Now I want to learn how to do it in PSE so as to have a bit more control...

[Chuck S.]

That looks good, Chuck. Lightroom is so easy for this sort of thing. Now I want to learn how to do it in PSE so as to have a bit more control...

Julie, good idea. Lightroom is a great 'front end', but a lot of images really benefit from that middle and back end provided by PSE/CS3. I've gotten very lazy using LR; I need to refresh and hone my skills in the other apps as well....

[GaryK]

I have to agree with you Chuck (not on your skills but on the lightroom part:D)
I am finding it harder and harder to move out of lightroom and into PSE.

Then again, where do you draw the line? I'm not sure you can get the control in PSE that you can in Lightroom (as far as b/w conversion goes) unless possibly through the RAW converter.:confused:

[Not4wood]

Gary and Chuck,

Are you saying that your finding Lightroom easier for the basic adjustments but when you need to do more creative work and delve deeper like in PE you cant or the controls aren't there??

I obviously don't have Lightroom, but I thought LightRoom was for Studio Work and had more choices then PE or CS. Are you finding LR to be limiting and in what way? Because you both agree, that you are having a hard time leaving LR. I am asking because I am interested in learning more and if LR is a better choice then PE???? Dont get me wrong, I like PE a lot and I am finding that PE can do just about everything we did in the Wet Darkroom.

If you would give a review of why you both feel you are having a hard time leaving LR and why you are saying its better then PE?

[Chuck S.]

Mark, Lightroom has a lot of adjustment capabilities for exposure and color, and it can crop and rotate an image, correct red-eye and clean up small blemishes. However, the exposure and color adjustments are applied to the whole image - there's no masking capability to allow you to affect only part of the image. There are also no specialized filters or effects that can add so much to an image. And....there are no layers. For images that are reasonably well-balanced to begin with and don't need special treatment for certain areas, Lightroom is quick and easy. But it's no replacement for the power of Elements and CS - just another tool in the toolbox.

[GaryK]

Mark

Not much to add to Chuck's assessment other than it is NEW.:D
I think, that in part, is one of the reasons I am spending quite a bit of time with it.

[Not4wood]

Thanks Guys.

Now I have another question for the both of you.

If LR is so limiting, then why is it such a big deal? What does it offer that the regular Photoshop line (I am including both the CS2&3 and also Elements) doesnot. I always pictured because of the Ads I guess that Lightroom can handle more shots at once for larger situations like a Model Session or a Wedding for a Studio Work Flow.

At this point in the game, how can a Photo Editor claim to be a full featured Editor when it doesn't include "Layers". Layers isn't a option, its a requirement to be able to edit the parts that we want.

[Chuck S.]

Mark, I think the folks at Adobe have advertised Lightroom primarily as a workflow tool for high-volume photographers, not so much as a photo editor. From the Adobe website:

New Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom® software is the professional photographer's essential toolbox, providing one easy application for managing, adjusting, and presenting large volumes of digital photographs so you can spend less time in front of the computer and more time behind the lens. The website goes into a lot more detail of what Lightroom is and isn't. Here's the link:

Adobe Photoshop Lightroom (http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshoplightroom/)

I really wasn't sure I was going to like it or use it much, but I was pleasantly surprised. Dowloading RAW images into the Library module is a breeze, and the images are virtually instantaneously ready for editing based on the camera's ACR profile. The Develop module has a nice set of tools, and an unexpected (at least for me) bonus was a growing set of custom user presets that can be easily previewed and applied to speed up the editing process. The Slideshow module is fairly intuitive as well, although I've just scratched the surface with it. I haven't touched the Print or Web modules but hope to do so in the near future.

It's not for everyone and it won't ever replace Elements or CS3. Downloading the trial version is a highly desirable step for anyone who isn't sure that Lightroom will have a good cost/benefit ratio.

[GaryK]

Mark

You can also have a look in the Lightroom Playground threads to see what some are doing with just LR.
One other point is, all the editing is non destructive. The adjustments are all saved in a sidecar file (xml??).

[Not4wood]

Hmmm, I can see more money being spent. LOL

Thanks guys.