ISO Question

[mrod]

Hi All-

My new D80 has a feature called Auto ISO. Basically, when it's on, the camera decides what ISO should be used. I'm wondering...

a) does your camera have it, and if so

b) do you use it, and why or why not?

I've experimented with both...it bugs me a little not to have control over that when it's on...then again, I'm still learning about which ISO setting is best for a given situation.

Thanks!
MIke

[GaryK]

Hi Mike

I don't have it. My guess is you set the appeture and shutter speed and the ISO is changed accordingly??
If you NEED the other two set then the ISO is the only thing to change.. then why not.
Maybe it is a bit of a throwback to old film days that we are hesitant to let the camera pick the ISO (ASA when I started ;)).

[lexcell]

That feature is available in most of the newer models. I don't care for it myself because the camera is taking control of my photography. It does not know whether or not I am on a tripod or whether I am trying for an effect at the ISO of my choosing.
As Gary states, if you really need a specific aperture shutter speed combo, then it is ok but, I would still rather adjust the ISO myself and know when I have bumped it up so I don't have any surprises when I look at my images and find unexpected noise from a high ISO.

[mrod]

Thanks, Gary & Laurie. That was sort of my thinking, too. I have read a couple of different opinions on this, but I'd rather (a) get myself fully educated, and then (b) make an educated decision. :D

Mike

[Byron Gale]

Mike,

(I've been away for a few days, or I would have chimed in earlier...)

Initially, I thought the Auto ISO thing sounded like a great idea. So I set it with a ceiling of 1600 and forgot all about it... ...until it bit me in the seat!

I had only had the camera about two months, and had just gotten my SB-600 flash. So I was less than familiar with the whole assembly. The short story is that, because of an inadvertent configuration of the flash, some once-in-a-lifetime shots were taken at 1600, leaving them all "sparkly" with color noise.

If I had not been using Auto ISO, I would have had a better chance at recognizing something amiss, because the required shutter speed would have been so slow.

Of course, a more astute user would have been more aware of things, so I can't truly blame the feature... but it is something of which to be observant.

Byron

[Chuck S.]

My little G9 has an ISO dial on the top of the camera, with Auto and Auto Hi settings in addition to 80, 100, etc. Sounds like a good idea, except it has a tendency to get moved when I pull the camera out of its tight little bag. Recently, I took some shots in dull light without noticing that the dial was on the Auto Hi setting, which resulted in some very grainy shots at 800 ISO - ruined, actually :(. More of a problem with a point & shoot like the G9 vs. a DSLR, but still a concern. I would turn off the functionality permanently if the option existed to do so....

[TonyW]

Initially I set up my D80 to use Auto ISO as it sounded like a good idea but after a couple of experiences like Byron's I turned it off and now make a point of checking the ISO setting before I take a picture. I still use ISO 1600 (and 3400) from time to time with good results but it's me telling the camera what to do, not the camera trying to second-guess me. Cameras these days are smart but not that smart. The one advantage they have is that they never forget and I do - which means I do sometimes forget to check the ISO setting but I usually spot the error (I try to check the histogram and EXIF data after critical shots and retake if I've messed up). That's what I love about digital - instant feedback.

Tony

[mrod]

I've sided with you all (or is that y'all? ;))--it's off. And it's good, because, like Tony, it's forced me to pay attention to that setting.

Mike

[Not4wood]

Funny, but just ran into doing this on my own my last session trying to capture a very large flock of birds. I ran out of my house grabbing my camera. I was having a hard time trying to get at least one in a frame and my metering was off.

It was cloudy, overcast and not so much as sun down yet but it was almost in a dark part. LOL

I had gone in and upped my ISO since I was playing with my 283 in manual mode and I had it set for ISO 100 which didn't quite make that level of light LOL. I never did get a great shot of all of those birds. I wasn't able to get a good close up and focus on a small group. Even when they were airborne it was too far no matter what I did. Oh well....

But I usually set my ISO when I first walk out the door and looking around getting a feel for the lighting conditions. For Flash, I have been using ISO 100! What ISO do you use for Flash or Indoor PHotography? Since where talking about setting the ISO individually/manually and the camera wont see my 283 so the auto metering wont be correct anyway.

[Codebreaker]

Being a self confessed control freak I prefer as much control as possible over my camera settings so even if I had an Auto ISO feature I wouldn't use it. Basically I want to know when I can expect some noisy images and I don't find it a big deal to dial in different settings since the 400D has a button on the rear for this.

What the 400D lacks is the ISO setting in the viewfinder so if this isn't visible for Auto ISO cameras I'd be wary about what's actually being used.

As far as Flash Photography goes it rather depends on the ambient light but the main concern I have is the shutter speed since somehow or other I seem to have lots of shots of my grandaughter who just can't keep still - 'the terrible 3's'. This means I either shoot in Tv mode with a shutter speed of 1/125 or 1/200. Usually I can get away with ISO 200 for a reasonable Apperture setting - but freezing the shot is more important than DOF in this case.

Sometimes I need to resort to some Flash Exposure Compensation.

Colin

[TonyW]

One other consideration with the Nikon Auto ISO feature is that (at least with my D80 and the firmware I'm using) if you do use it then you must remember to turn it off if you go into manual mode. That was driving me crazy until I figured out what was going on (you can find a discussion of the issue on Ken Rockwell's site). When you start changing manual settings the Auto ISO kicks in and tries to compensate - you can imagine how frustrating that can be. Another reason I turned it off as I do switch to manual from my usual P mode from time to time.

Tony

[kImages]

Tony brings up a real issue. I had Auto ISO turned on a D70 and went into manual mode to shoot an indoor studio senior portrait session. Everything was captured at 1600 ISO and I had a huge mess on my hands. Arrrgh! Luckily it was a modeling session not a client session.

Lesson learned - no more auto anything - especially ISO. I bought a grey card to set the WB, but I have to admit people look at me like I'm a pretty weird duck taking pictures of this 8X10 card. :p

[Not4wood]

One other consideration with the Nikon Auto ISO feature is that (at least with my D80 and the firmware I'm using) if you do use it then you must remember to turn it off if you go into manual mode. That was driving me crazy until I figured out what was going on (you can find a discussion of the issue on Ken Rockwell's site). When you start changing manual settings the Auto ISO kicks in and tries to compensate - you can imagine how frustrating that can be. Another reason I turned it off as I do switch to manual from my usual P mode from time to time.

Tony

Wait.............

You're saying when you are in manual mode, if you have it set on Auto ISO it will still try to compensate??? If you take it off Auto ISO and set it at Manaual like 200 then the camera lets you do what you want without interfering. Correct....... ????

I found that since my 283 doesn't communicate with my D80 I have to set it like I'm using my old Konica T3 at Manual Settings. I miss that old camera LOL. My viewfinder/meter/mirror needs cleaning and its not worth it.... Yeah, right LOL.

But thats whats interesting about these modern day techie cameras. It depends on whats going on, the lighting conditions, the subject matter and so on. Granted, I haven't used my D80 all that much yet. But I will use it on some auto settings and I've found that I will change it, put it on manual and play with it as I'm walking around to get the best pictures I can. I've seen it that on some of the settings the camera will compensate on certain settings like metering, saturation and will try to think about whats happening, as scary as that sounds. I"ve shot in Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, Manual, Portrait and scenery. I've also set it for manual to play with the settings and shoot all at the same time. Keeps me on my toes, but I'm out of practice and I like trying to cram at the same time, LOL. But, I haven't shot in Program Mode yet. I still can't understand why or what this does but I'm still reading yet. What I do find strange is that I remember when shooting a job, I would set the ASA/ISO in those days anyways for the film and it would stay there because I wouldn't change the film. I would buy a box and keep shooting while the film speed always stayed the same. If I was outside shooting a Model in bright sunny conditions with colorful backgrounds like the small Red LightHouse right under the George Washington Bridge (and it was just painted, we had the paint smell as long as we were there) I would use the same film 64 slide in those days. Geeeeeeeeeeeeeee, brings back memories uhhhh. But, only when we left that situation I would take out another film that I had to switch. After the Light House we went to the Cloisters and it was very shady outside and extremely dark in that Castle. Shooting a "Wedding" and I would use the same film all day and not switch. Hmmmmm, thinking back on it now brings up questions considering we used to take the Bridal Party to a Park after shooting inside. Why didn't we use other films at that time???????? They might not have been as good as quality as we today but they were still good.

OK, now you got me curious. What version Firmware are you using in your D80? Are you using any of the chkdk? I thought they were for the P&S cameras and not the DSLR. I would think that the CHDK would really change over the DSLR by increasing the speed and giving some other options???

[mrod]

Wait.............

You're saying when you are in manual mode, if you have it set on Auto ISO it will still try to compensate??? If you take it off Auto ISO and set it at Manaual like 200 then the camera lets you do what you want without interfering. Correct....... ????

I found that since my 283 doesn't communicate with my D80 I have to set it like I'm using my old Konica T3 at Manual Settings. I miss that old camera LOL. My viewfinder/meter/mirror needs cleaning and its not worth it.... Yeah, right LOL.

Correct, Mark. I've read that it's a flaw in the D80 firmware. The Auto ISO does not deactivate when you switch to M mode.

Mike

[Not4wood]

Correct, Mark. I've read that it's a flaw in the D80 firmware. The Auto ISO does not deactivate when you switch to M mode.

Mike

WOW, that could cause big problems. I figured that it was just part of the Auto Exposure System and turned it off manually so I could shoot with my old Manual Flash so the camera wouldn't try to change any settings when I would shoot. Since the D80 wouldn't normally think the flash was being used it would meter the exposure and set it which would be wrong because I would use the flash to light it up. Duhhhh and I did this out of habit without thinking about it. Will wonders never cease.........

I found that the camera would look at my subject and try to make a good exposure without realizing I was using a flash. Hmmm, using the Nikon SB600 is starting to look better and better...

I wonder if the Firmware could get past this problem? What version are you using??

[Chuck S.]

There's only one firmware update so far (1.0.1) and it doesn't appear to address the issue being discussed here. Here's what it does do:


Modifications enabled and issues addressed with D80 A and B firmware Ver. 1.0.1

The electronic analog exposure display will be displayed in the viewfinder when the brightness of the subject exceeds the range that can be controlled by the camera, whether too bright or too dark, in the following shooting modes:
Shutter-priority auto (S) or Aperture-priority auto (A) exposure modes with the built-in flash up
Programmed auto (P) exposure mode
Effects of processing performed when the Long exp. NR item in the shooting menu is enabled have been improved.
When attempting to edit images, which had already been edited using a computer, with options in the D80’s retouch menu, the camera sometimes froze. Therefore, images that have been edited using a computer can no longer be edited using the camera.
Errors in English, Polish, Swedish, and Traditional Chinese menus have been corrected.

[mrod]

There's only one firmware update so far (1.0.1) and it doesn't appear to address the issue being discussed here. Here's what it does do:

Hmm. That doesn't sound like real major stuff. I just checked, and my version is 1.00. I haven't yet researched how to go about upgrading...can't be that hard, right?

Mike

[Chuck S.]

Hmm. That doesn't sound like real major stuff. I just checked, and my version is 1.00. I haven't yet researched how to go about upgrading...can't be that hard, right?

Mike

Mike, here's a link to the D80 firmware:

D80 firmware (http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_prods=19%2C309&p_pv=2.309&p_cats=186&p_cv=1.186)

If it's anything like Canon firmware updates, it's pretty straightforward. Just have to be careful...

[mrod]

Thanks, Chuck. You saved me a little legwork. I'll give it a shot when I have a free moment...

Mike

[TonyW]

Like Chuck says the latest D80 firmware doesn't change the manual/Auto ISO feature. Wheither it's because Nikon know something I don't and that it's a feature not a bug I don't know. Also didn't know what Mark means by CHDK. Had to google it and as far as I know that's a Canon hack - haven't ventured into hacking my Nikon and I don't think I will :). It works fine for me the way it is.

I almost always shoot Program mode (have never even tried any of the scene modes). To me that handles everything I want as in P mode I can easily change the relative Aperture and Shutter settings (so making it equivalent to A and S modes) and with exposure compensation I effectively get M mode as well. I usually shoot with an exposure compensation of -0.7 or -1.0.

Tony

[Chuck S.]

Tony, I've always shot in P mode as well, although I haven't been as diligent as you in changing the choice of aperture/shutter speed combination (perhaps a little more cumbersome on Canon than Nikon). Starting to venture into aperture priority more, and used manual for some Christmas lights photos and liked the control it gave me.

But ISO.....I just pretend I'm shooting ASA 100 film and that works for me!

[TonyW]

Tony, I've always shot in P mode as well, although I haven't been as diligent as you in changing the choice of aperture/shutter speed combination (perhaps a little more cumbersome on Canon than Nikon). Starting to venture into aperture priority more, and used manual for some Christmas lights photos and liked the control it gave me.

But ISO.....I just pretend I'm shooting ASA 100 film and that works for me!

Chuck - on the Nikon it's very easy - you just turn the rear command dial and you can see the shutter speed/aperture values changing in the viewfinder - so it's easy to change as you are just about to fire the shutter. If it's more complicated with a Canon maybe that's the reason I don't see this method recommended by Canon users :)

Must admit though I change ISO a lot. Rarely do I use 100. Guess the sun always shines in Texas but not up here in winter :D

Tony

[lexcell]

Interesting stuff being bounced around here...
I'll try to add my two cents worth to the different topics...
First, ISO...shoot the slowest speed you can get away with. If you have to go higher to get the shot do it. If you don;t need the speed stay slow for best resolution (yes,even with the newer cameras)

Auto ISO...turn it off. It will end up biting you in the butt some day on some very important subject. Get used to making those decisions for yourself based on the situation.

Firmware updates...do them. In addition to the posted fixes, I half believe that there are undocumented corrections thrown in as well. Go directly to the manufacturers website and download the updates from them.

Flashes...when it's all said and done, I am a big fan of going with the manufacturers own flashes. I have been dealing with several people over the last few weeks whose third party no longer works properly with their new cameras. This is rarely an issue when you stick with a flash made by the same folks that made your camera.

You have invested all this money in digital...use the technology, no...embrace the technology. Learn how it works best and when you need to take control and override things.

[Chuck S.]

Chuck - on the Nikon it's very easy - you just turn the rear command dial and you can see the shutter speed/aperture values changing in the viewfinder - so it's easy to change as you are just about to fire the shutter. If it's more complicated with a Canon maybe that's the reason I don't see this method recommended by Canon users :)

Must admit though I change ISO a lot. Rarely do I use 100. Guess the sun always shines in Texas but not up here in winter :D

Tony

Tony, I looked up how to change the P mode combination on my G9. I have to depress the shutter part way, then press the * (AE Lock) button, then rotate the control dial on the back of the camera. Test of manual dexterity for me; more often than not, as I try press the * key I accidentally trigger the shutter...:mad:

Re the winter sun in Texas: we surely have it today! Current temperature is about 25.....Celsius. But it's still autumn, so there's hope yet....

[jlwilm]

Well, I have a Canon 30D and have been slowly switching over from P mode to Av mode, setting the aperature priority, then and using the spin dial on the camera back to twiddle the under/over exposure setting. Gives me the control over both aperature and shutter speed and can easily be seen thru the eyepiece. Works right for me!

[Codebreaker]

A point about Firmware updates. I'm a great fan of if it 'ain't broke, don't fix it'. (Actually if it ain't broke, it don't have enought features yet).

Some of the Canon updates correct minor things like menu languages and communication with Pictbridge printers. Of course you never get to know if there's something else that is going on they don't want to reveal.

However, I've come across some posts about the 40D update that changed the RAW format such that the latest ACR didn't recognise it. It was also stated that you couldn't go back to a previous rev.

Some caution is perhaps needed when considering an update.

Colin

[TonyW]

A point about Firmware updates. I'm a great fan of if it 'ain't broke, don't fix it'. (Actually if it ain't broke, it don't have enought features yet).

Some of the Canon updates correct minor things like menu languages and communication with Pictbridge printers. Of course you never get to know if there's something else that is going on they don't want to reveal.

However, I've come across some posts about the 40D update that changed the RAW format such that the latest ACR didn't recognise it. It was also stated that you couldn't go back to a previous rev.

Some caution is perhaps needed when considering an update.

Colin

Colin, I agree. I always wait for a while and read the forums to see what others experience before venturing into uncharted waters ;)

Tony

[Not4wood]

Interesting about shooting in Program Mode. I haven't done it and actually I know nothing about it.

In my old 35mm, my Konica was Aperture Priority so thats what I'm used to. Since I can now also shoot in Shutter Priority I have shot some this was as well. Feels different but I do like the choices LOL.

Keeping the ISO as low as possible is interesting consider all the talk about having a too high ISO creates the unwanted Noise. I only play with the ISO if I am under conditions that are so off I cant get a good meter reading. Shooting at 100, 200 and 400 seem as normal to me as picking up the camera. I really miss shooting in ISO 64 or even 25 but what can you do. I very rarely go any higher then that but if the situation calls for it I'll keep an open mind.

[NickLewis]

Chuck - on the Nikon it's very easy - you just turn the rear command dial and you can see the shutter speed/aperture values changing in the viewfinder - so it's easy to change as you are just about to fire the shutter. If it's more complicated with a Canon maybe that's the reason I don't see this method recommended by Canon users :)Tony,

No -it's just as easy on a Canon. You turn the main dial by the shutter release. That's on my 20D anyway - I'm pretty sure it was the same on all the EOS's I've had and even my T90 way back when. (Ah, film......Proper photography.....:))

I think there'a way of reconfiguring the camera to use the rear dial for this, but I'm not sure.

On my G6 it's the same process as Chuck's G9. Fiddly, unless you're an octopus!

My camera is frequently in P. I usually prefer it to aperture or shutter priority because at least you always start with something halfway sensible!

Nick

[Chuck S.]

My camera is frequently in P. I usually prefer it to aperture or shutter priority because at least you always start with something halfway sensible!

Nick

Nick, I knew there was a valid reason I've been using P for years! Thanks!!:D

[Benny Pedersen]

Hi All-

My new D80 has a feature called Auto ISO. Basically, when it's on, the camera decides what ISO should be used. I'm wondering...

a) does your camera have it, and if so

b) do you use it, and why or why not?

I've experimented with both...it bugs me a little not to have control over that when it's on...then again, I'm still learning about which ISO setting is best for a given situation.

Thanks!
MIke

Don't use it. The auto setting would often use ISO 400 to high, sometimes ok, but not the best. Use ISO 100 if there is lots light, otherwise set it to 200.

Remember to change the preset for your Canon so it can go up to iso 3200, otherwise you can only select 1600 as max.

Benny

[NickLewis]

Nick, I knew there was a valid reason I've been using P for years! Thanks!!:DChuck - I think P gets a bad press in some quarters. I can't see how it's different from Tv or Av in principle. All any of them do is transfer the camera metering to the exposure controls. All that differs is your starting point.

Certainly with my dSLR, I usually then twirl the dial to get a suitable combination, so it really doesn't matter which mode I'm in. And if you're blasting off shots without checking what your settings are - and I'm not suggesting at all that that isn't the right thing to do sometimes - then you're safer in P anyway!

Nick

P.S. I've been fascinated to see how poorly people rate the Auto ISO feature. I remember reading reviews berating Canon for not implementing it after Nikon did. But at least this sample of users clearly don't like it!!

[Chuck S.]

Nick, it might be a tolerable feature on a DSLR, but on a point & shoot such as the G9, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately, trying to cram 12 megapixels onto a tiny sensor makes ISO values above 100 very noisy, above 400 nearly useless.

[NickLewis]

Yes, camera makers seem to have lost the plot with megapixel counts, it seems to me. What's the point in capturing high resolution images if you can't enlarge them because of noise levels anyway??

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd have thought very few P&S images get enlarged above about a 10x8. Which is what? 5 megapixels at 250dpi?

Nick

[Not4wood]

Nick,

On my Canon Elph 5 MG P&S I am able to go as large as 11X14 without any noise as long as I stay away from both higher ISO settings and also the digital zoom.

It takes great pics and I truthfully cant complain. But I also realize that this is only kinda like an old Kodak Instamatic level digital and I cant expect a DSLR quality pics from it under all conditions.

Yes, its Digital. Has some great features and great results but its limited. Doesn't and can't have all of the features of a DSLR for that price and I dont expect it to.

[TonyW]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd have thought very few P&S images get enlarged above about a 10x8. Which is what? 5 megapixels at 250dpi?

Nick

Not wrong but I do keep running into people who didn't get close enough so want to blow up a piece of the image rather than the whole thing. Of course to do that you need both the pixels and the resolution and even if you have the pixels the resolution tends not to be that great with small sensor P&S cameras. That said my original 2MP Olympus made perfectly good 10x8's some of which are still hanging on the wall - just had to make sure that I got close enough so didn't have to crop anything away.

Tony

[Chuck S.]

Tony, the cropping dilemma continues to be one of this forum's most-cited issues (well, at least it seems that way to me!). The aspect ratio thing is tough to grasp and the "fill the frame" recommendation for taking photos clashes directly and frustratingly with the need to crop for specific print sizes. Unless you're willing to do your own printing, matting and framing, you have a problem...

[Not4wood]

In wet Photography, on the processing side, there was always a need to be careful about keeping the finished size in your minds eye while shooting. I always left a little bit of cropping room around my subjects, this way no matter what final size it was going to be enlarged too, I always had a bit of room to crop. It always made it a bit frustrating when you wanted to enlarge or crop something and didn't have the foresight to leave room, or get close enough to your subject that the final results werent good enough. Cause, sometimes, you couldn't go back and reshoot it................. :twisted:

This isn't something that is an after thought. It should be done while in "Previsualization Mode" to help in "What you see, as a finished product". Remember, I wasn't just a B&W darkroom addict. I was also a proof printer on an advanced at that time mass, fast color printer and I was able to crop only a little bit. But thank God, my boss had the wisdom to not go public, so I only had the proofs from the "Portrait, Baby (which I hated LOL) and also the Wedding Photographers". I also ran the B&W Darkroom, but it usually was just the big boss and my work that had to be processed so that was not a problem. On the one occasion that the owners son did shoot in B&W his work was also as good, published and all so I had no worries about cropping problems there either. Professional Photogrpahers learn this early, and get used to it to avoid problems in processing.

[lexcell]

Luckily today you can find ready made mats and frames in 8X12, 11X16, etc...the same format as our cameras capture.
If you want to stick with standard size prints, Mark's advice is spot on...leave some room to crop the long end.

On another note...I have seen images published in magazines and enlarged to poster size from point and shoot cameras. The key is to get it right in camera and shoot at a low ISO. While resolution is important, it is not the end all to great images! That's up to you the photographer...

[Chuck S.]

Laurie, have you seen any frames and/or mats in the aspect ratio of P&S cameras, i.e., 4x3 (8x6, 12x9, 16x12, etc.). We'll know that consumer digital has gained some respect when that happens....:)

[Not4wood]

Chuck,

In the local Art Store where I had my 4 pics matted and framed. The Lady had custom sizes and didn't think twice about my 3 8X12's and 11X14. Also, on my 11X14, I had the frame made a drop larger cause I felt that the bottom part of the Matte would look better if the white Matte was thicker and she had no trouble making the Frame 20X22
Top and both sides are 2 1/2 inches and the bottom is 3 3/4 to make a very nice large print of my Water Fall at Big Sur. Also, in my gallery.


Granted it was expensive with all the custom work. I had two Mattes, on the 11X14 outer was white, 1/4 inch dark grey to match the dark grey frame.

The 2 8X12's (btw, printed at www.mpix.com (http://www.mpix.com)) dark stone textured (distressed frames) dark grey matte outer, with a lighter grey 1/4 inch Matte showing.

The third 8X12 is Bright Silver Frame with a Bright White Matte and this one is the Kodak Endura Mattalic Paper from MPIX. This is my San Juan Capistrano shot in my gallery and the water in the fountain in the front part of the shot is absolutely amazing. The water almost looks like a ghostly silver (almost like liquid mercury).

Now Matting, Mounting and Custom Framing hit me for about $450 for all 4 prints and the price of these 4 from MPIX was so small its not even worth mentioning. LOL Cheaper then I could print between the Inks and paper. She had no trouble with creating a very professional looking job and dealing with my Digital sizes. She said she had worked with Digital Prints before and couldn't get over my 4 as Digital Quality and she really took a liking to the San Juan Metalic Paper Shot.

So, Chuck.............. The Digital Photogaphy World has made a good impression on a Custom Framing Art Store in my neighborhood in Queens.

[lexcell]

Luckily you can get any size mat and frame you want through custom framing shops. Albiet for a price but they look so professional. However, as for ready made....it took forever to get them to make mats and frames to fit the aspect ration of 35mm, it's hard to say how long it will take for the ready made market to fill in the new aspect ratios of different cameras.

An interesting aside...Nikon has a new aspect ratio in the D3, not only is it FX or full frame, it can be 1.5X for DX lenses and there is a new ratio masking the image for traditional 4X5, 8X10, etc sizes...hmm!

[TonyW]

Curiously 4x3 ratio frames seem to be readily available in the UK in all shapes and sizes in what look like reasonable prices. See this web-site for example:

http://www.picturelizard.co.uk/PictureFrames.php?cPath=27_63&page=1

Tony