Printing - What color profile??

[Tracy Lee]

Hi all.

I rarely print my photos or scrapbook pages, and now that I'm trying to print some Christmas cards on my Canon IP4300 (I think it's called a Pixus elsewhere), I have no idea what "printer profile" to use. When I try to print from the Editor, I get a multitude of choices in my color management area - such as "IJ color profile 2005; IP4300 mp2 (and PR1 through 4); same as source; e-RGB..." the list goes on.

Can anyone tell me what would be the best option for me to print? Using the IJ color profile 2005 made the photo a bit over-saturated; MP2, a bit faded.

Any tips appreciated.

Thanks a lot!

Tracy

[jlwilm]

Hi Tracy,

I would suggest using Use Printer Color Management, especially if you are using Canon inks and papers. When you get into the print routine, select the type of paper recommended with the instructions/package that was shipped with the paper.

Non Canon brands of paper will typically tell you to use Photo Glossy or whichever is their best match to Canon.

For a beginner, this is the easy route to take and will usually give excellent results!

[Not4wood]

Tracylee,

You didn't mention what program your using to create your Christmas Cards. If your using PE or CS2 or 3 I would say that using the color management effects of your printer would be best served being turned off.

Where in the printer setup you have Vivid, line, border or borderless and so on. Turn off your effects completely and let the program print it without interference from the printer.

Printing in either SRGB or ARGB would probably give you the best results while setting the paper to what ever the manufacturer recommends.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[jlwilm]

Mark,

Well, it is always dangerous to make assumptions, but the original post referenced which color profile?

In that case, I believe thew answer is to rely on the printer color management, especially of you are a beginner.

In Photoshop Elements, this is achieved by using the "Printer Color Management" option. The items you are mentioning are probably best turned off, using Elements or camera settings instead, but they are effects, not color management.

[Not4wood]

Mark,

Well, it is always dangerous to make assumptions, but the original post referenced which color profile?

In that case, I believe thew answer is to rely on the printer color management, especially of you are a beginner.

In Photoshop Elements, this is achieved by using the "Printer Color Management" option. The items you are mentioning are probably best turned off, using Elements or camera settings instead, but they are effects, not color management.

I never, ever, ever Assume anything. I am only commenting on what I do see and what I do know. I am only a beginner in Color Management and I would never tell anybody how to If I dont know myself or haven't tried it to see what has been done. :D
Yeah, thats why I kept my comments to a minimum. I also have a Canon printer and I usually have it as sRGB. I haven't been able to find out if the Canon Line can handle aRGB so I don't bother with it if I'm not sure. Yet, LOL. The settings that I did mention are the ones that Canon use to interfere with the printing process and I've seen it mentioned time and time again to make sure these Effects are all turned off so that they don't interfere with the PE Color Management or Camera Color Management. See, I didn't mention doing or altering in any way Color Management or Color Profile. Why, because I have't gotten that far yet. I am up to the point where I am about to purchase Syder Pro to Calibrate my Monitor, and untill then I have done as much research as I can to find out the best possible settings with what I DO have.

[jlwilm]

I never, ever, ever Assume anything.

Actually, I was talking about MY assumption, not yours.

I make assumptions all the time, and then test them. I think that is called the scientific process - make an assumption, (hypothesis), develop a test to prove it, evaluate, and so on – or something like that.

Canon Printers – I have an i9900 – only support CMYK color space. Printer Color Management (in general) is the process by which the sRGB or Adobe RGB is mapped to the CMYK space.

My research indicates that your recommendations are quite valid, especially if you are using PS Elements and are more useful if you are doing direct printing from camera to printer, but they are not Color Management, nor do they deal with (my assumption) the originators request about “What Color Profile”.

The problem with Canon ICC profiles is that they are not forthcoming with which profile is to be used with which paper. The I9900 comes with 4 Canon ICC profiles. A thorough review of the Canon USA site led me to a document that ‘hinted” at the mapping of those profiles to the Canon papers. I experimented with all of them and found the ones that are best suited to the papers I use – some Canon, some not.

When you use the PS Elements “Printer Color Management” and in the Canon print driver, specify which type of paper you are using (Glossy, Mat, Etc), the printer maps the profile and manages the mapping from the sRGB space of Elements (if that is what you are using) to what it needs to apply the ink to the type of paper you are using.

I have a Canon 30D, set to shoot in Adobe RGB space, and use a mish mash of Inks and Papers using the Canon supplied profile(s) and Relative Colorimetric as the rendering intent.


Edit - Link to Canon_ICC_Profile_Guide.pdf

If you want to check out the guide, I found it on another site - here it is ICC Profiles Guide (http://homepage.mac.com/renard/ls/Canon_ICC_Profile_Guide.pdf)

[Codebreaker]

The problem with letting Printer Manage Colours is that this is not available from the Organiser only the Editor. General consensus though is that Photoshop performs better colour management than most printer drivers but since the results are very subjective you can decide that for your self.

Neither Photoshop or the Printer Driver does an RGB to CMYK conversion. Inkjet printers are still RGB even though they may contain CMYK inks. Many printers contain even more colours than CMYK.

Yes, Canon has always been a pain in my opinion when it comes to Profiles. For many of their range they just don't exist and in these cases I always recommend sRGB.

Some printers proclaiming to support AdobeRGB - which includes my Epson R2400 - are stretching the truth a little in my opinion. While it does have the capability of reproducing some colours of AdobeRGB that are outside of sRGB, it misses others.

A useful toy for looking at Colour Profiles is the Microsoft Color Applet. You can download it for free from MS and compare profiles with it.

Colin

[Not4wood]

I think Canon is stretching the truth a lot more than a little so thats why we can't find a good profile for the large assortment of printers.

My Canon IP6700D not only prints the Photo quality very nicely, I find that its very flexible in what I'm trying to do. Besides all of the searching for better quality that I have done and actually keep hunting. The printer gives me many options and it is really very closely matched to my monitor even though I haven't calibrated it yet. My colors are very close, the only thing I have to complain about is the Density. My screen is very dark with my PE5 and also Photoshop 7 when my print looks good. All of the colors are there no matter how much I play and that also includes when I'm in RAW.

I use the 4X6 and 8X10 in Foto Paper Plus Glossy, and also the Epson Premium Presentation Paper Matte 8X10.

I will be shifting over to the Ilford Pearl soon, when I can get my butt over to the camera store and hope that will print as good. Took me a while before I found out where to buy it near me. When I bought my camera I noticed the Ilford on the shelf and felt at that moment I was spending enough and I should wait. Duh, would a could a should a bought it then.:D

----
Warning, Way, way off topic of Photography!
----
Talking about assuming and figuring out a problem. :) I let the symptons tell me how to go about finding a solution. I have seen and also found that if I come into the problem with pre visualized thought notion they then interfere with the process of inteligent thought process and I must keep an open mind to solve the problem. For example: my partner for this one particular job and I had come in to find a water leak. He automatically thought that it was in one spot, which turned out to be correct. He then said job is done and wanted to leave without performing a full leak test. I had suggested that we do a full test anyway keeping in mind the one area that we already new to be leaking. After we finished this full testing of running the water and throwing water around the tub area/enclosure, the total amount of leaks had mushroomed to 5. Thats 5 complete separate areas that had water coming thru. If we would have left, we still would have had a problem and would have been sent back but this time would have a much harder time considering the mental bias in this situation.

[jlwilm]

Colin, Mark,

Interesting discussion, as usual.

I went back and reviewed the link material and others I have, and have concluded that they are kind of weasily on the subject of printing color space and RGB/CMYK print space. The link (based on my current interpretation) supports Colin’s assertion that the printers are RGB, and yet that they somehow extend the capability to map to the cmyk space. My assumption is still that a mapping process is required to get the best colour reproduction possible.

Now, a confession.

I have printed a LOT of the possibilities and have reviewed, inspected under a magnifying loop, and gone back to the source to review my prints, and have concluded that there is not a huge difference based on paper, ICC profile, whatever. Individually, I would have been happy withy any/all of the prints. Lined up side by side, I would notice/can see subtle differences. The only way to determine the “best” reproduction of colour would be to go back to the source – under the exact same lighting conditions and see which one was most faithful.

There is little doubt in my mind that 10 individuals would make different choices as to the best match. There is also little doubt that this test would be extremely difficult to conduct except under strictly controlled lab conditions.

If you like it, it is good enough!!

And finally, for Mark,

I agree, pre existing assumptions are the most difficult to change. Some times, impossible to change. The secret is to have an open and inquisitive mind.

[Codebreaker]

John....

The 'mapping' process you refer to is what colour management is all about. It's about translating the numbers/colours in on space to that of another. This is why the CM engine always needs a source and destination profile to work correctly.

I've also carried out many print tests consuming £'s of paper and ink and have noticed differences. For instance when Canon was my main printer I found better results with Kodak than Canon's own brand. However, using some Epson papers in the Canon was a complete disaster.

Ilford papers are nice too but with any paper you need the correct settings in the Printer and you need a Profile. Some Ilford papers are also a complete disaster with my Epson printer

That said, it's all subjective - if it works for you that's what counts :)

Colin

[Tracy Lee]

Okie Dokie...

I see that Color Management is quite a bit more complicated than I'd realized.

Yes - I'd meant color settings as in should I let the printer do it? And whether or not I chose that option, which setting would be best?

I hadn't even started to consider paper brands or CMYK - all my images are in RGB color mode...

Thank you all for your comments and help on this. I will take some of your advice, do further research, then some trial and error!

To be quite honest - I just want to print a few Christmas cards for family for now, so I think "if I like it, it's good enough" will be good enough:)

I'll post back when I've gotten some "test results".

Thanks again John, Colin, Mark and Not4Wood;

Tracy

[Not4wood]

:D Sorry for the confussion!:eek:

Me, I am Not4wood.

Mark G
Not4wood
I am a carpenter by trade. The full meaning of Not4wood is:
If Not for wood, where would I be now?

[sydneysnana]

After looking through previous posts and trying to come up with where to start with my question I decided to use this thread to ask the question. (correction, "this" question because I have too many!!")

I have a new printer, Canon iP3500. It is so fun now to fine tune or understand more. I print from PSE 5. Not sure who was managing the color, maybe both(?), which I know now would be wrong.

I found a note in the printer help "The Color Correction function specifies the color adjustment method that matches the type of document to be printed.Normally, the printer driver adjusts the colors by using Canon Digital Photo Color so that data is printed with color tints that most people prefer. This method is suitable for printing sRGB data.
If you want to print by using the color space of sRGB or Adobe RGB data effectively, select ICM (Windows Image Color Management). If you want to use an application software to specify an ICC profile, select None

Then I looked around and see this in PSE
http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1jRFGtND9z4kQEhVrfQZmEfWEWhKRI_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1jRFGtND9z4kQEhVrfQZmEfWEWhKRI)

I don't know where the Canon options in the above window came from or which to choose????????

I'm thinking this will get me started with my first question...... I have been trying a test print out and I use Canon paper and ink.

Thanks
Michelle

[Codebreaker]

Michelle....

The Canon profiles you see in the drop down box are for there different types of paper. If you look on the packet of paper you'll see a type number that almost matches the last 3 characters of the profile.

So,

PR= Photo Paper Pro
PP= Photo Paper Pluss Glossy
MP= Matte Photo Paper

and so on.

Choose the one that matches the paper you have.

Colin

[sydneysnana]

Thanks for the info!!! I have made myself crazy with all this!!! I probably should'nt have even gone here because now I have more questions....

Looking at this page in PSE, I think "Printer Color management" and "Same as Source" mean the same thing????, that the printing properties in the printer determine the print? Why would I choose the paper options in the Pse window?? I think I will print with printer management and ICC for the color.

Somewhere I think you recommended a book. I need to find one for "Dummies" and maybe I can get the picture better.:)

Michelle

Looking back I think you answered the above in this thread #9 http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26248&highlight=source...? Further proof I am going in circles... I'd love any more comments or clarification....

[elwoodsusanm]

"Same as Source"

I usually print using the same setting as above and up to now everything turns out as it should!:) I have the epson 1400.

[johnrellis]

Yes, letting your printer manage color will produce reasonably good results for most casual users most of the time. In the Organizer, that means setting Print > More Options > Print Space to Same as Source. In the Editor, that means setting Print > Color Handling to Printer Manages Colors.

Each printer has its own driver and preferences, but usually the out-of-the-box settings have the printer manage color. (E.g. in Canons, that preference setting is called "Color/Intensity: Automatic".) Note that the Organizer and Editor each maintain their own sets of printer preferences, so you have to set the printer preferences in both applications.

Details:

There are two approaches to "managing color" when printing -- having the printer manage color or having PSE manage color. When the printer manages color, PSE passes photos to it unchanged, and the printer driver does any necessary color conversions on the photo to get it print well. When PSE manages color, PSE converts the colors in the photo before passing it to the printer, which then prints the photo unchanged.

Most people with consumer printers made in the last several years will get pleasing results by letting the printer manage color. That's simplest to configure and use and is a good place to start.

However, more demanding users often want finer control over color, so they will configure PSE to manage color. The PSE PDF manual has a bare-bones description of the steps necessary to configure PSE and your printer for PSE color management. Others have already posted links to other sources that provide more in-depth descriptions of color management.

[TonyW]

Looking at this page in PSE, I think "Printer Color management" and "Same as Source" mean the same thing????, that the printing properties in the printer determine the print?

There is a subtle difference that may be relevant for some printers. Printer Color Management sends the uncorrected color numbers numbers along with the color profile (eg sRGB or Adobe RGB). Some printers may use that info, some not. Same as Source sends just the uncorrected color numbers. I'm not sure what the printers out there that use the color profile but just in case yours does then it's likely best to pick the Printer Color Management option.

Tony

[sydneysnana]

Thank for your answers. I've also been trying to read through a thread from back in 06. Enough for today...
This is a great place!!
Michelle

[johnrellis]

There is a subtle difference that may be relevant for some printers. Printer Color Management sends the uncorrected color numbers numbers along with the color profile (eg sRGB or Adobe RGB). Some printers may use that info, some not. Same as Source sends just the uncorrected color numbers.

Tony,

I think we may be talking about different versions of PSE.

In the PSE 6 Full Editor, you have three options: Printer Manages Colors, Photoshop Elements Manages Colors, and No Color Management. If you select Photoshop Elements Manages Colors, you can select a printer profile. But there is no option for "Same As Source".

In the PSE 6 Organizer, you have just one option, Print Space, from which you can select "Same As Source" or a printer profile.

I had learned that in the PSE 6 Organizer, setting the Print Space to "Same As Source" would let the printer manage color, and the printer would receive the photo tagged with the photo's profile. Do you believe that in this case the printer receives the photo untagged?

[TonyW]

Adobe have a habit of changing the words although the underlying method doesn't change. PSE5 is no different from PSE6 but the words changed. Supposedly to make it easier to understand but I'm not sure it does. The Organizer seems to be written by another group because it uses different words for the same thing. They do like to keep us guessing :D

Tony

[Codebreaker]

As Tony says the subtle difference between Printer Colour Management and Same as Source is in the inclusion of the Colour Profile.

Same as Source does not include a Colour Profile which makes true Colour Managment impossible, since you always need a source and destination profile for the conversion to work.

However, if the image data is in the sRGB colour space then this may work reasonably well on some printers since they may assume they are getting sRGB data anyway.

Colin

[jsydrew]

Hi I'm new to this ! can I ask your advise or do I have to go thru the forumn ?

[johnrellis]

Same as Source does not include a Colour Profile which makes true Colour Managment impossible, since you always need a source and destination profile for the conversion to work.

By "Same as Source", are you referring to the Printer Profile setting of the PSE 5 Editor's Print command, or the Print Space setting of the PSE 6 Organizer's Print command? In PSE 6 at least, the Organizer and Editor use two entirely different print engines:

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=kb402502&sliceId=1

The Editor's print engine is shared with CS 3, so one expects the same terminology and behavior as CS 3, but the Organizer's print engine is separate and uses different options and terminology.

I had learned that the PSE 6 Organizer's Print Space: Same as Source setting would include the profile when sending the photo to the printer. But I can't remember where I heard that, so I have lower confidence.

The PSE 6 manual is ambiguous about the meaning of the Organizer's Print Space: Same as Source setting:
Color Management Choose a printer profile fromthe Print Space menu. The Print Space menu sets a custom printer profile to convert image colors to the printer’s color space, or turns off color conversion. If you have an ICC profile for your printer and paper combination, choose it from the menu. Make sure that you turn off the printer driver’s color management. Image Space shows the color space embedded in your photo file.
Can you say what leads you to believe that the PSE 6 Organizer's Print Space: Same as Source setting won't include the profile in the data sent to the printer?

[Codebreaker]

John....

The basis for saying that Same as Source is raw data and no profile comes from what happens in the full version of Photoshop. Although there is no direct statement from Adobe saying this is what happens the evidence from other sources leads us to this conclusion.

If you look at Ian Lyons' web site you see he categorically states this is the case for full Photoshop, and he is an acknowledge Photoshop expert.

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_2.htm

Other sources such as Bruce Frasers, Real World Colour Management also infer this is the case because they describe the three possibilities for Print Space:-

1. Same as Source > being Raw data
2. Printer Colour Management > being Raw data and also including a Profile
3. Use of specific printer profile.

The inference being that 1 and 2 would be identical if Same as Source also included a profile - which makes no sense.

In addition the recommended way to generate a printer profile from a Test Images is to send it to the printer using Same as Source to absolutely avoid colour management - which you don't want for profiling.

Now although PSE6 may include 2 print engines it still has only 1 colour management engine ( unlike Lightroom which uses 2). This would lead me to think that the options for colour management in printing would be the same as the full Photoshop and the same for Elements whether Organiser or Editor.

However, I could accept that Elements is different in this respect as Adobe have made some odd choices in describing their colour management policies so it's conceivable that Same as Source could have a different meaning. Given also that the choices in Organiser do not include Printer Colour Management - but you can do this in the Editor - it's possible that the Organiser has a different interpretation of Same as Source than the Editor.

It's also possible for Same as Source to give good results if the image is sRGB and the printer assumes that any data it gets is sRGB without looking for an embedded profile - which some printers do.

I had set out today to try and prove this by printing test images but my play printer has decided to die today. If I can ressurect it I'll give it a try soon.

Colin

[johnrellis]

Colin,

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. Clearly, what I thought I learned about the PSE 6 Organizer Print Space: Same as Source was wrong. (I have Real Word Color Management but, foolishly, it didn’t occur to me to look at the Photoshop section.)

Your message did prompt me to do a very simple experiment: I printed a photo to the Adobe Generic Postscript Driver and looked at the resulting Postscript. It does indeed appear to be the case that the Organizer Print Space: Same as Source sends the photo untagged to the printer.

When I print from the Editor, Printer Manages Color, the photo’s profile appears in the Postscript, as expected:

[/CIEBasedABC 20 dict
dup /CreationDate (20021025133216) put
dup /RenderingIntent (RelativeColorimetric) put
dup /Description (Nikon sRGB 4.0.0.3001) put
dup /ColorSpace (RGB ) put
dup /Copyright (Nikon Inc. & Nikon Corporation 2002) put
dup /ProfileID <378105B4EC2365ECC754C849A7AB54D9> put
dup /DecodeABC […profile table numbers…]

But when I print from the Organizer, Print Space: Same As Source, the profile does not appear in the Postscript.

Further, the only difference in Postscript between printing from the Organizer, Print Space: Same as Source and Organizer, Print Space: Adobe RGB is the image bytes following “beginimage”, exactly what you would expect.

Thanks much for setting me straight.

[Not4wood]

I must admit, this whole thread has gotten so detailed with the advanced discussion on color management with all of the information I would like to ask everyone here:

As far as everything that has been mentioned for better and improved color space/gamut for printing. ICC Profile Downloads, Photoshop/PE Color Management and the more improved higher quality/heavier art papers:

"What Printers do you make your Color Managed Photos On"??
"What Papers do you use and speaking of papers, what paper surfaces do you use for certain subjects"?

I am also talking about Glossy, Very High Glossy and of course the Matte. Making art quality photos 8x10 or larger in the old "Wet Days" I did get to the point that I prefered Matte for almost everything. Now, with the advanced technology I have acquired the taste for this new Glossy Plus stuff. :D Every where I look in this level of digital darkroom I see a lot of information about the Glossy Plus. I wonder why the facination about the Glossy, and not the Matte? I had just bought a box of Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl, downloaded the ICC Profile and made one very beautiful, very high quality print then my printer died.... Now, I'm looking for a new printer and the equipment available that accepts these papers is limited and the prices are a lot higher then I was aware of. At this point in time, I am starting to lean towards the Epson R1400 model. It does accept the higher art papers, and can also accept the ICC Profiles available from other manufacturers ie Ilford. Any opinions of this printer? The 1800 model is only about $50 more but I see that the ink cartridges will be 14.99 for the 1800 and 19.99 for the 1400. Granted the rolls of paper will eventually make printing cheaper but I don't think its worth the money. Granted I wasn't prepared to spend $300 bucks on a printer either. Any opinions??

I cant get over the range of prices available on the net. By me, listed both Staples and MicroCenter have the 1400 for 299.99 and I have seen it for as high as $447.38.

Colin,
You mentioned that you have an Epson 2400, but for some reason you didn't like the Ilford papers on it. Can you explain this, I am interested in the Epson 1400 and am very curious?

Thanks in advance to everyone. I have really enjoyed learning with this thread.

[Codebreaker]

Mark.....

The paper I use most on the R2400 is Epsons own Premium Photo Gloss. Previously I'd been using Kodak Ultima on a Canon but in comparison to the Epson paper it was not as smooth. I've never tried the Kodak on the Epson - yet!

As for Ilford papers, I love them but I'd read somewhere that some were not compatabile with the K3 inks of the R2400....I think it may may have been their Pearl finish which I think is great. I must look this up again since I still have a couple of boxes to use up. The Gloss I think has worked fine.

I've also tried a range of Permajet papers - Canvas effect and so on. They're Ok but don't suit the type of images I produce.


Colin

[Zeria]

Colin

Perhaps you are familiar with this site, but just in case, they sell paper, inks, etc.
This page lists Ilford paper, and two of the Classic Ilfords are designated that they are not compatible with UltraChrome ink---

http://www.atlex.com/ilford/ilford-digital-inkjet-paper.htm

[Codebreaker]

Thanks Zeria.....

I did go back to the Ilford web site and found the notes about them not being compatible with Pigment based inks.

http://www.ilford.com/en/pdf/prods/galerie/Classic.pdf
http://www.ilford.com/en/pdf/prods/galerie/IGCPP9.pdf

Some of the Smooth range seems to be OK.

Colin

[elwoodsusanm]

I have the Epson 1400. I am very pleased with it. I did all of my daughter's wedding photographs on it and the results are excellent (at least to me anyhow:)) I also have the epson R300. The 1400 with the claria Ink gives a much better photo - you can really see the difference. I paid £199.00 for my 1400 - this more than paid for the wedding photos and I still have an excellent printer!:)