Working with a Large Project with Multiple Clips

[BBGeeker]

My first post - sorry if it's a "dumb" one and I apologize in advance for such a long explanation, but here goes:

I'm an amateur and I'm using PRE 3. I have a larger project (almost 2 hours) and the footage is from two separate cameras. At first, I thought that would be good b/c I could pick-and-choose the best footage from each camera and include in the final project. However, the sound is dramatically different from each camera. The footage is from a cathedral setting, so there is a lot of echo - and I realize all the complications that can cause by itself but that's a different issue. The "problem" with the audio is that the organ music is blaringly loud on one camera but pretty good on the other. However, the blaringly loud camera sounds much better for the people talking whereas the other camera has their voices so soft that you can't really hear them. If I try to normalize the clip or increase the gain (on the soft clip), it doesn't really help b/c it also increases the ambient "noise". In other words, one camera's audio is good for the organ music parts while the other camera's audio is good for the parts when people are speaking. And, to finish this background explanation before asking for advice, there are portions of video from one camera that are far superior to the other camera so I'd like to use portions of each. In summary, I have to mix & match some audio from one camera and some from the other, while simultaneously mixing & matching some video from one camera and some from the other. I wouldn't have thought this was so complicated, but I'm really having trouble with it and would greatly appreciate the voice of experience! Here's what I'm having trouble with:

1. PRE 3 doesn't let me run two separate instances of the program at once (even though my computer could probably handle it), so I have to do everything with just one instance of PRE 3 running. (When I need to compare documents in Word, for example, I can have two instances of the program running and can easily switch back-and-forth among documents to make comparisons. I can't seem to do the same thing in PRE 3.) Is there any way of having two instances of PRE 3 running so I can put the footage from one camera in one instance and the other camera footage in the other, and then switch back-and-forth as I cut-and-paste sections of audio and video?

2. I read Mr. Grisetti's tutorial re: working with large projects in which he says to export smaller portions of the project in 10 minute AVI's, and then bring all those shorter AVI's into one final project. That's good and helpful advice, but my concern is that the shorter AVI's are "finalized" and I can no longer make adjustments to the transitions or the way the audio synchs with the video - and those final tweaking adjustments might need to be made after the whole project comes together in one project. Thus, is there any way to work with smaller "projects" (instead of exporting as smaller AVI's) and bringing several smaller projects into one larger project so that I can still make adjustments to each portion of the overall video? I think this might be called "nesting projects".

Apologies again for such a long one. I guess the problem I'm having, in a nutshell, is that I can't "see" two video clips at the same time so it's very difficult to pick which portions are best from each camera. And even if I just make some choices and split clips and edit the video so it looks good, I still have to somehow do the same thing with audio from both cameras and somehow make the audio seem synched up - even though the audio from one camera may be playing while the video from the other camera is showing. It seems pretty difficult to line all that up. I don't really think that I need multiple camera "angles" b/c my two cameras are shooting the exact same footage from the exact same place (one was meant as a backup, not as another camera angle), so I hope I don't need to use a more advanced video editor b/c I love the ease of using PRE 3.

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this project and I might just be making it more complicated than it needs to be. Thanks!

[ATR]

I am still working on a response to your question which I hope to post sometime tomorrow. I did not want you to think that your question was being overlooked.

ATR

[ATR]

I am just a "it works for me" type of person, so the following are just my current thoughts on the issues that you presented. Discussion welcomed....

1. You say you are a beginner, yet you appear to be taking on an advanced multitasking project. Have you first gotten the Premiere Elements 3 fundamentals down with a mini project with classical beginners' type video clips? Is your computer optimized for Premiere Elements 3? Keep in mind that, for many tasks, Premiere Elements appears to function best without additional programs running in the background. For some tasks, this becomes a critical issue.

2. As for multitasking with what you have, without invoking additional windows, see if any of the following sounds like it would help:
Bring your media into the Media Panel
Drag Video Clip 1 to Timeline, Video Track 1/Audio 1
Drag Video Clip 2 to Timeline, Video Track 2/Audio 2
And so on
Then position each in a "train-like" manner
Then move your Timeline Indicator (CTI) to the desired location, highlight, review, and edit the Video Clip, move things around accordingly
Do the same for another of the Video Clips on another Track by moving the CTI to the new location.

Look into how to trim clips on the Timeline as well as doing this from the Media Panel/Monitor.

3. Have you looked into Dual Monitors and how they might enhance your workflow?

4. The Normalization was a good idea. But, have you looked into Keyframing your audio?

5. You could still use the route "saving chunks as DV AVI" depending on what you think that is going to save you. I will not go into a scenario, but video cutting, effects applications, transitions placement after the fact would be involved.

6. A lot of possibilities.

7. You say that this is going to be a 2 hour project. As DVD-VIDEO? If so, one disc? I am looking ahead to Quality problems trying to fit this on one DVD with spec 4.7 GB/120 min. From all that I have read, if you have to lower the Bit Rate, the quality should go down.

Let us know how this all turns out.

ATR

[BBGeeker]

Thanks, ATR! Frankly, I had begun to think my problem was either too simple to warrant a response, or I had done a very poor job in posing the question(s). My sincere thanks for your help! I'm still stuck and frustrated...

[BBGeeker]

ATR, I hadn't seen your helpful advice before I sent my last "thanks". So now I'm saying thanks again with this quick reply b/c I have to go coach a youth sports team this morning...

1. I said I was an amateur so everyone would know that I am not in the video business and I do not get paid for doing this stuff. Maybe a better word would be "volunteer". But I have done some video projects before and I'm not intimidated by it - especially with the ease that PRE 3 has provided. I admit that the video footage I was given for this project presents more challenges than I would prefer, but I think I can overcome that. My biggest problem is that I can't "see" both clips at the same time so I can see which clip looks best for particular scenes.

2. I like your idea of putting the clips on separate timelines in a choo choo train manner so I can move the timeline indicator around to see both clips. If I trim the clips to manageable size, this method should work - or at least help a lot. Here's what I WAS doing: I had a short clip (10 mins) from both footage sources on separate timelines, but I had them stacked on top of each other so they would be showing the same scene at about the same time. Unfortunately, I could only "see" either timeline 1 or 2 at once, but not both. And switching from one to the other is not easy in PRE 3 b/c I had to go to the Clip/Enable toggle on the top of the screen to turn one clip off while the other was one, and vice-versa. That was tedious and time-consuming. I wish PRE 3 had a way I could simply "hide" a timeline temporarily with a simple "eye" toggle on the timeline itself. But what would help the most would be if I could "see" timeline 1 in one monitor while simultaneously "seeing" timeline 2 in another monitor. I sought to accomplish that by running two separate instances of PRE 3, but it won't let me do it. Is there a way to view 2 timelines simultaneously? If so, that would probably be the most efficient means of solving this problem.

3. Dual monitors: When I first read this I assumed you meant using two physical monitors to expand the desktop. I've done that before and my computer can output to two monitors, but I found that it didn't really help b/c the limitation was ME, not the computer. But now that I thought about what you said about two timelines and my wish that I could see both simultenously in two separate monitors, I wonder if that is what you meant? Aside from being an amateur, I'm also not always the sharpest crayon in the box - so I might have misunderstood your suggestion. Sorry. If I had two physical monitors, can I show separate timelines on each? That would be a huge help.

4. Audio: I tried tons of things with the audio. I even took pieces of the WAV over to Audition (the sound editor) so I'd have more advanced editing options. Nothing really works to eliminate or reduce the echo. I tried practically every filter the program offers and I've searched all over the Web for ways to clean up the echo, but it seems like the general consensus is that I just have to live with the echos. So I focused instead on making the voices more understandable. The audio from one camera is very loud and that helps for the voices, but the music is so loud that it is obviously clipping. The audio from the other camera is much better for the music, but I can't hear the voices well enough to understand them. I tried to add gain to portions of it, and that helps (especially if I later add the "reduce tape hiss" filter), but it's more efficient to use the voices from the loud camera and the music from the soft camera. If I do that, I can probably just normalize each smaller audio clip and the voices will be consistent while the music is also consistent. In other words, I didn't actually keyframe the audio from within PRE 3, but I probably did something similar by adjusting gain, etc. to sections of the audio in Audition. I like the keyframe idea though - it seems like a much simpler solution than all the work I went through with Audition. I will definitely look into keyframes for the audio if I can break the project down into smaller pieces. I guess part of the problem has been just breaking the darn thing down into smaller pieces and I'm having trouble with that b/c I can't see the two footages simultaneously so I don't know which footage looks best for which scenes.

5. I greatly appreciate your help and I apologize that I have to go coach a team, but I'll come back to this later this afternoon, ok? Just reading your thoughts on this has helped me see it all differently and I am very grateful for that. It's really frustrating when you're stuck and have run out of ideas. Yet I'm sure someone has had this same kind of problem before and probably figured out a way around it. If I could see the two timelines simultaneously, I'm very confident that will be enormously helpful towards getting me out of "stuck" mode. Thanks again!

[ATR]

I have no experience with Dual Monitors, but have the impression that you can extend your “real estate” considerably by using them. My thought was to get your video clips in the same project on the same Timeline in different tracks in train like fashion as suggested earlier. So, since it is a bit crowded, the Dual Monitors seemed like a way to give yourself more room, maybe expanded Timelines on one Monitor and the rest of the other…just something for you to look into. Beyond that I do not know what Dual Monitors, Computers, and Premiere Elements will permit.

You may have seen the following link dealing with Video Editing and Monitors? If not, check out the generalities under the Dual Monitor Section:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/moviemaker/expert/dunn_03august11_monitors.mspx

If you visit the Grisetti/Engels site http://www.muivpix.com, you will find a Steve’s Tip entitled “Setting Up a Dual-Monitor System”. The specific link for that page is:
http://muvipix.com/products.php?maincat_id=7&subcat_id=7
The price listed is USD $9.95, and I have no idea if Steve Grisetti goes into the video editing uses of Dual Monitors (not sure if it is a PDF or video).

I shall continue to think about these issues and will let you know if I come across anything worthwhile.

Two other forums for other opinions:
Premiere Elements User to User Forum at http://www.adobe.com
Grisetti/Engels Site at http://www.muvipix.com

Let us know how you do.

ATR

[BBGeeker]

Thank-you, sincerely, ATR, for all your helpful thoughts and links. I've seen some of them already and will check out the others today. In the meantime, I also found one of Steve's Tips (Steve Grisetti) where he talks about A/B Roll Editing - which is sort-of what I'm trying to do. I found the article here: http://videoinasnap.chuckengels.com/source/steve/steve_tips_06-06.htm

Basically, Steve suggests synching two clips on top of each other (i.e. one on timeline 1, the other on timeline 2), and then using an "onion skin" technique to see both of them simultaneously. The onion skin thing means adjusting the opacity of each clip so you can see both of them playing on top of each other.

This sounds like a possible work around so that I can see both clips simultaneously, but I don't think it's ideal b/c I can't see both clips with full clarity so it will still be difficult to make editing decisions based on a ghosty image. But it DOES let me view both clips simultaneously and that's what I've been trying to do. I still think the ideal solution would be if I could open two clip monitors in PRE 3 and play timeline 1 (with clip 1) in one monitor simultaneously with timeline 2 (with clip 2) in the other monitor. In that way, I could see the full clarity of both clips and more easily decide which portions to retain from each clip.

To me, it seems like my problem can be crystallized down to a more simple question: How can I open two clip monitors in PRE 3 so that I can view two separate clips at the same time?

Having thus restated the question, would it be inappropriate for me to begin a new thread posing that very specific question? I should also mention that I sent an email message to Mr. Grisetti directly (asking this specific question) but I don't know if the email address is still active or if he will answer it. If he does, I'll certainly let you know what he says. Thanks again for all your helpful thoughts, and please let me know if it would be all right to open a new thread posing that simple question about two clip monitors. Thanks!

[ATR]

You could post under a different title here, but realistically I think that you should try for second opinions at:

Premiere Elements User to User Forum at http://www.adobe.com
and/or
Grisetti/Engels site http://www.muvipix.com

Let us know the outcome.

ATR

[BBGeeker]

ATR,

Sorry so slow with this update - my ISP was out until it was finally repaired today.

Thanks for your candor about trying other sites and forums. I will definitely look at the muvipix site b/c it sounds perfect for amateurs like me who need some occasional help with stuff.

Here's an update on progress with this problem: I was extremely flattered and grateful to Mr. Grisetti for answering my email request begging for help with this problem. He explained that PRE 3 does NOT allow me to view two timelines simultaneously, but that IS a feature of the Pro version. Thus, to make a long story short: I decided to upgrade to the Pro version so I can use the multiangle editing feature. Even though my footages are not different "angles", they still are two separate clips and the way I want to edit them makes it functionally the same thing as a multiangle edit. I love using PRE 3 b/c it's so easy to use, but sometimes you run into a limitation and have no choice but to use the features in the Pro version. I had tried so many different ways of doing this within PRE 3, but it was extremely inefficient and frustrating. I don't know if the multiangle editing feature will be my salvation, but it sure sounds like it is precisely what I've been asking for. I'll be happy to follow-up with you here after I receive it if you're interested in how it goes. However, I realize that this is a Premiere Elements forum so I don't know if it would be inappropriate to make a post about my progress with the Pro version (although the thread began with using Premiere Elements). Thank-you very, very much for your understanding and help! Just knowing that you understood the difficulties I was having (and were willing to help) was downright therapeutic for this frustrated amateur! Thank-you very much.

[ATR]

Thank you for letting us know how things turned out.

Right now, my dream programs are Photoshop CS3 Extended and Premiere Pro CS3. But, the realty is that I am still using Photoshop Elements 3/Premiere Elements 2. These programs meet my project needs nicely. In spite of that, I keep learning beyond my immediate programs.

The cost comparison is quite dramatic between Elements and Pro versions. Right now you appear to have a specific need for the features of the high end product as defined by Steve Grisetti. But, will that need exist beyond the current project? Did not this all start with trying to use footage from two different cameras with varying "uniqueness"? Maybe use workarounds for the current project, resolve the camera issues for the future projects, and think Premiere Elements???

If you get a chance go the tryout route before you buy.

Although the Grisetti/Engels site is a good place to visit, do not overlook the Adobe Forums. If I recall, they have specific Forums for the different versions (or at least they did before they began their seemingly endless reorganization). You will find both places populated by many of the same people. You should be able to have discussions there with current Premiere Pro CS3 users.

I do not think it would be inappropriate for you to let us know how this all turns out.

Good luck.

ATR

[BBGeeker]

Hi ATR,

My sincere apologies again for not posting this reply sooner. Thank-you again for your thought-provoking post and very rational suggestions. I actually thought about this quite a bit and some of my concerns mirrored yours - especially the "expense" and "future need" concerns. Those are very valid concerns and the resolution of them probably varies from person to person. In my particular case, I'm an amateur and I just volunteer my time to help family and some friends with this stuff, so any expense I incur is never going to be recovered. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation. I coach youth sports and there are a lot of other Dads out there doing it too, and none of us gets paid for it. We volunteer our time and incur expenses we'll never recover, but we do it anyway. It's fun even though it's frustrating sometimes, and we get a sense that we're giving back what Dads had done for us when we were kids. I view this video stuff somewhat the same. The time I spend on it and the expenses I incur don't really make any sense - but I'll bet you understand why we do it anyway. So I wrestled with the decision of getting the Pro version but ultimately decided to do it. Here's why (and I don't mean to make light of it, but if I may quote/paraphrase Hedley Lamarr from Blazing Saddles): My mind was a torrent; racing with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative possibilities. :) In other words, I read a lot about the Pro version and I thought the advanced features would help me create more polished videos with this project AND with future projects, and that means a lot to me.

If you recall, my current project involved footage from two cameras - but only some video was useful from each camera, and only some audio was useful from each. The scenes involved some ongoing dialogue (i.e. can't cut much out) and the cameras weren't synchronized in any way, so it was very difficult to "see" what to keep from each camera (i.e. which video from which camera and which audio from which camera). If I could "see" both source footages playing simultaneously, it would have solved the problem. But PRE 3 doesn't allow that and, from the marketing materials I read for PRE 4, it doesn't allow it either. Thus, the upgrade path to PRE 4 would have led to the same frustrations I was already encountering. Please don't get me wrong - I still am a firm believer in the simplicity that the Elements versions offer and I intend to continue using PRE 3 for less complicated projects. But for this project and for some multi-camera projects I envision down the road, the Pro version seemed like a more efficient way of handling the complications.

With that background, I promised to update you on my progress. I installed the Pro version (very impressive package - it includes Encore, etc.) and tried my first multi-camera edit right away. I'll be honest, the interface is not as "friendly" as the Elements version, at least not for me, but once I figured out where everything was, it wasn't very difficult to do some multi-camera editing. This isn't "close to" what I was looking for, this is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Again, I don't mean to denigrate PRE 3 in any way - it just couldn't do multi-cam editing and I needed to do multi-cam editing. So far, I've completed a very nice 8 minute segment I can use for the final project. I hope you don't mind if I mention the process here in case others have a similar type of project....

The first step in the multi-cam edit process was to synchronize the clips. I think the pros do this using a clapper at the beginning of scenes, but I don't have that so I just set clip markers at the same point in each video and synchronized to the clip markers. Sounds simple, and it was, but it was made pretty easy because it was easy to "see" both videos quickly by using the little "eye" to hide or unhide the video on a track (it's called "Toggle Track Output"). This is something that PRE 3 does not have but it would have been helpful for me. Basically, if I have one video on track 1 and another on track 2, I can easily see each in the monitor by clicking on the "eye" to hide the track I don't want to see. This was a cumbersome process in PRE 3 b/c I had to select a clip, then go up to the Clip Menu and select "Enable" (or Disable). Since I had to go back and forth constantly, it is SO much more efficient to use the "eye" toggle right on the timeline. Anyway, by toggling between the tracks, I quickly was able to set clip markers at the same point in each video and then synchronized them quickly.

Once the clips were synchronized, I was able to open the multi-cam editing window which was exactly what I had been looking for. This window shows the two clips playing simultaneously, right next to each other, so it is extremely easy to see what footage is best at any particular point. There is also a monitor that shows which of the two clips is currently "active" (b/c you can switch back and forth by simply clicking on which clip you want to be the active one. In other words, I have the two clips playing simultaneously, and the third monitor shows the video I create by choosing between the two. This is called "recording" a multi-cam edit, and to record it, I simply click on the monitor of the footage I want to use. When I want to switch to the other footage, I just click on its monitor. Thus, I can "choose" the portions I want from each camera's footage by clicking on the monitors as the video is playing. It's incredibly easy and is really amazing. When I've "recorded" my multi-cam footage, I have another timeline with the video that contains all the portions from each camera. At this point, there are no transitions between the switches so it sort-of looks like what you see on TV when the scene quickly changes from one to another without any transition. If I want to add transitions, I can. But I like the way this looks without transitions. It's really impressive! In the 8 minute clip I've created so far, I switched between cameras 20 times (e.g. when one camera started shaking, etc.) and was quickly able to get the best footage from each camera. I'm in complete amazement at how easy that was using this method (and how frustrating it was without it). So far, I absolute think I made the right decision to use the Pro version with this particular project and the complications it presented.

Obviously, I'm not done with the project and I have a lot to do still, but I did that first part so easily that I don't think it will be too difficult. I still have to work on the audio issues. And I also realize now that the color (saturation or whatever) is definitely not the same from both cameras, so I have to do some things to match them up. The Pro version has a "color matching" effect that is supposed to do this, but it hasn't worked well for me so far - but I'm not sure I understand how to use it. I was able to get pretty good results by adjusting the brightness a little and the saturation a little. With those adjustments, the color from both cameras looks very similar. I made notes of the settings I used so I think I can just apply them throughout the video and keep the color looking pretty consistent. The audio will be a bit of a challenge too, but I haven't gotten that far yet.

There you have it. So far so good. Once again, I still LOVE using PRE 3 b/c it's so easy to use. This particular project I'm working on presented some difficulties that PRE 3 didn't handle well, but the Pro version was sort-of designed to handle them. To be honest, I wish I didn't have to incur the expense, but I think it was worth it in terms of the time savings and the reduced frustration. I'm still a fan of PRE 3, but I also like the things the Pro version can do. Is that a good update on the progress so far? Is there anything I left out or overlooked that might be helpful? Thanks again for ALL of your very generous help and understanding!

[ATR]

Thanks for the update.

Often I see posts asking for comparisons between Premiere Elements and Premiere Pro. Often answers to these questions are few and far between. So, your report back should be a good resource for those who check in here looking for some hands on experiences with Premiere Elements and Premiere Pro.

Continued success.

ATR