The Relationship Between Selections and Layers

[CEHARRIS3]

While working on a Dave Cross tutorial yesterday, I was having problems with inverting a selection. I will bring up this specific problem on another post, but the situation led me to another enigma which until now I had difficulties expressing. It relates to the whole issue of the relationship between selections and layers.

For example, let's take the elliptical marquee for example. It puzzles me that a selection created on the very bottom layer of a stack of layers appears on the top-most layer, and EFFECTS that (top-most) layer...even if some of the intervening layers are not transparent. Because the permutations are virtually endless, I will leave the discussion here and see if someone can lead me to a source which discusses this issue. I have virtually all of the Phillip Andrews books as well as the Adobe texts and can't find the issue addressed. I find this ("migration" property of selections across layers) difficult to understand, and I believe that solving this puzzle will greatly improve my understanding of PSE

Am I crazy...or are others just as puzzled?:confused:

[cats4jan]

selection created on the very bottom layer of a stack of layers appears on the top-most layer, and EFFECTS that (top-most) layer...

Now you have me interested in trying to see where the selection "goes"

Guess I never noticed that - but

My best guess is work flow

When I create a selection from one of the bottom layes - I'm interested in working on that selection as a current item in my project. It's relationship to that original layer becomes irrelevant.

EDIT

If you use 'control j" to put your selection on a layer - your selection will be put directly above the layer you selected from

If you make a selection and use
edit> copy
edit> paste
it also goes directly above the layer

If I make a selection - choose inverse - then copy it - it still appears right above the layer I've selected from

So far, I have not been able to get the selection to appear at the top of the layer palette

Maybe I have totally misread your question

Or maybe PSE4 does it this way (I have 4) - and PSE 5 does it the way you have mentioned

[Rusty]

I'll have to experiment (like Janice) to try to duplicate what you are saying. But I often do the following when working with selections.

If I am attempting to only apply something to part of an image, and don't want to use a masked adjustment layer, I will select the part of the image I want to adjust and, with the selection active (marching ants) use the menu bar to apply the effect (Enhance Color, Enhance Lighting, etc). The effect is only applied to the selected part of the image.

The disadvantage of this method is the only way I know how to cancel the action is to use Undo. It's a lot easier to subsequently tweak it if a masked adjustment layer was used or if the selection was put onto its own layer.

Rusty

[CEHARRIS3]

I hope I have done this correctly. I uploaded and attached (I hope) a screen-shot of what I am speaking about, The bottom layer (1) has an elliptical selection; the second layer is a transparency (2); the third layer is 100% opaque blue (3)and the fourth layer (4) is a transparent layer.

The "marching ants" elliptical selection is evident on the fourth layer, and when a white paint bucket is applied, the selection is painted white.

This strikes me as being odd, in that the selection in essence "went through" the an opaque field.

Maybe I am trying to think about this too deeply:twisted:

[Rusty]

I probably don't understand your question. I attempted to recreate what you are showing: Background, new layer (blank), new layer (filled with blue), made a selection and filled with white.

http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1cWhUuGZPb4G24lv41KDIZlqePnh0_thumb.jpg (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1cWhUuGZPb4G24lv41KDIZlqePnh0)

The only way I could get the white selection onto layer-4 was to make the selection, Ctrl-J to copy the selection (which is blue) onto a new layer, which becomes layer-4, and then fill with white. (An alternative would have been to create a new blank layer (#4) above the blue layer, and with that layer active, make the selection and fill with white.

No matter how you get this onto a 4th layer ... what are you attempting to do?

Rusty

[CEHARRIS3]

Rusty...I am not attempting to do anything.:) I am trying to understand why what I am describing works!

[JulieM]

This strikes me as being odd, in that the selection in essence "went through" the an opaque field.




It doesn't go through the opaque blue layer beneath it. It is applied on top of it because it is on a layer above it. It is just like you spilled a drop of paint on a piece of paper placed on the top of a stack of other papers. But, maybe I'm not understanding the issue. :)

[Byron Gale]

I wonder if this will help - thinking of the selection marquee as where you are "aiming" - in combination with the selection of a layer in the Layers palette... ??

[mrod]

I'll chime in, too, and hope this doesn't further muddy the water. I don't think I can reword your question, but I think I understand what you're asking, and here's my shot at an answer:

Selections are totally independent of layers. For example, you can draw your elliptical selection on Layer 1, then click on (target) Layer 17, and your selection will now be ready to act on Layer 17. You can target Layer 9, and the selection will be active on that layer.

If you draw a selection on Layer X, it is not part of Layer X. It's not part of any layer. It just is. The layer it affects will be the layer that you have targeted in your Layers palette.

Does that help?

Great question, by the way. I might have to send that in for consideration in a future Q&A column...:D

Mike

[cats4jan]

Mike -
That may well be what he is asking - and even if it isn't, it's a great explanation for those who don't understand selection's relationship to layers.

[CEHARRIS3]

Can't thank you all of you enough for the replies. Byron and mrod have hit it on the head exactly!!!!!!!!! Would never have thought of this explanation myself, but this answer greatly enhances my understanding of what is going on.

Phrasing a question accurately solely in a written medium is taxing on the brain indeed. It took me a while before I could reasonably phrase my confusion, but I find PSE presents really neat challenges for thinking.

Again I don't know how anyone could learn and understand this stuff without this forum and the folks who actively participate.

Again...Thanks Clarke

[mrod]

Glad that helped, Clarke. And you're right! New challenges every day!

Keep at it, and keep asking questions!

Mike

[Rusty]

Mike, you are now our Zen Master,
If you draw a selection on Layer X, it is not part of Layer X. It's not part of any layer. It just is.

Rusty :D :D

[GaryK]

It is selected.. therefore it is.:)

[mrod]

Mike, you are now our Zen Master,
If you draw a selection on Layer X, it is not part of Layer X. It's not part of any layer. It just is.

Rusty :D :D

I sorta liked the way that sounded, I must admit...:D

[GaryK]

Mike/Rusty

That is just like a creation/photo isn't any format until you save it.:)