Camera cannot display images edited with PSE

[Vowani]

When I edit digital photos -- transfered to my pc from my digital camera -- using Photoshop Elements, and I upload the edited photos back into my digital camera, the camera will not display them.

Software & hardware used:
- Photoshop Elements 4 for Windows
- Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ3 digital camera

Description of workflow:
I take pictures using my digital camera. I transfer them to my computer via USB and edit them with Photoshop Elements. I transfer the edited files back into the camera via USB. Edited pictures cannot be displayed by the camera. (Unedited ones, or photos edited with other applications display just fine).

This problem only happens when I edit the photos with PSE.
It does not happen when I edit the photos with another editor, for example Microsoft Office Picture Manager. In the latter case, the camera displays the uploaded edited photos just fine. So the cause of the problem must be PSE.

At first I thought it was because PSE changes EXIF data.
PSE does indeed change some of the photo's EXIF data. But this turned out not to be the cause of the problem. I verified this by using a tool (Exifer) to copy the original EXIF data of the unedited photo back into the edited photo, and then uploading that photo into the camera. The camera did not display the photo, which eliminates EXIF changes as a potential cause.

What about JPEG changes as a potential cause?
I also tried varying the JPEG encoding settings when I save the photo in PSE. This also had no effect. I tried "baseline standard", "baseline optimized" and "progressive". None of these eliminated the problem. Changing the JPEG quality also did not solve it. I tried "quality 12" and "quality 10". The problem still persisted.

Any tips?
Does anyone have an idea what could be causing this problem?
Any suggestions for a potential fix?
Do you have the same problem with your digital camera?

Thanks for your help!

[baycruisers]

I've never tried to (or needed to) upload photos from my PC to my camera. Just out of curiosity, why are you trying? Are you wanting to show others your edited photos?

[Chuck S.]

Did you try saving the edited images via the Save for Web function? That tends to simplify the file in some ways; maybe that would make it more compatible.

[Chuck S.]

If all else fails, you could edit the images in PSE, save, re-open in Microsoft Office Picture Manager, re-save, then upload to the camera. A nuisance to be sure, but...

[winwintoo]

Cameras have their own format. Your computer (and PSE) can interpret the format, thus allowing you to work on your format, but the camera CANNOT read ANY computer format.

No camera that I've ever heard of can do what you want to do.

Take care, Margaret

[Chuck S.]

Margaret, I would have thought that, too, but the OP has been able to upload and view images edited by Microsoft Office Picture Manager. So there's a way, at least with the Panasonic model mentioned...

[Wendy]

Hi ...

... and welcome to the forum :)

was there some special reason that you wanted to view the images in the camera after they have been edited ??

Wendy

[Chuck S.]

Wendy, I've noticed that a lot of the new cameras come with A/V cables to hook up to a TV for displaying photos on a TV. I'm guessing OP wants to be able to park edited images on the camera's memory card and display them without use of any other device. Not an unreasonable thing to do, IMHO.

:)

[Vowani]

I've never tried to (or needed to) upload photos from my PC to my camera. Just out of curiosity, why are you trying? Are you wanting to show others your edited photos?

Yes, Chuch guessed right: I am connecting my camera to large-screen television sets via an A/V cable, to show the photos to a crowd of family and friends.

I could also do this with a laptop, but taking my small camera to family events is often more convenient.

[Vowani]

Did you try saving the edited images via the Save for Web function? That tends to simplify the file in some ways; maybe that would make it more compatible.

Yes, I tried "Save for web" too. It does not solve the issue.

[Vowani]

If all else fails, you could edit the images in PSE, save, re-open in Microsoft Office Picture Manager, re-save, then upload to the camera. A nuisance to be sure, but...

That is indeed a workaround. However, I prefer to use PSE for all my editing. I'm sure you understand ;-)
And of course I am trying to comprehend what PSE does to the photos which makes them unreadable by the camera.

[Vowani]

Margaret, I would have thought that, too, but the OP has been able to upload and view images edited by Microsoft Office Picture Manager. So there's a way, at least with the Panasonic model mentioned...

Indeed, pictures edited with MS Office Picture Manager can be displayed by the camera. So this proves there must be a change that PSE makes to the JPEG files which causes them to become unreadable by the camera.

[Vowani]

Hi ...

... and welcome to the forum :)

was there some special reason that you wanted to view the images in the camera after they have been edited ??

Wendy

Thanks for the warm welcome, and the many reactions already to my questions!

I would appreciate it if some members of the forum could also try to transfer photos they edited with PSE to their own digital camera, to check if the problem also occurs.

That way, we can determine if it is a generic problem or camera-brand specific.

[Wendy]

Hi ...

Oh now I see what you are trying to do ... I have a Digital Photo Frame and when I transfer images, edited in Phohorshop, to my camera certainly can't see them. Canon 300D (Rebel)

I have always understood that its the same for all cameras ... but maybe there are some that can "see" the images :)

Wendy

[Vowani]

I have always understood that its the same for all cameras ... but maybe there are some that can "see" the images :)

The thing here is: the camera can display images edited with for example Microsoft Office Picture Publisher, but not images edited with PSE.

So the issue is with PSE, not the camera.

[baycruisers]

Sandisk makes (or used to make) a small device that doubled as a card reader and display platform. You can plug in your card (or flash drive), connect the RCA cables to a TV or DVD player, and look at your images. We bought my father in law one several years ago so he could display pictures on his family room TV. We got it at Circuit City for about $40.

[Wendy]

Hi Vowani ...

It maybe advisable to contact Adobe about this issue .... as I doubt that anyone here will know the answer :)

Wendy

[NickLewis]

Hi Vowani,

I'm afraid I think you've run into a fact of life - I don't think there's anything wrong with either PSE or your digital camera.

For example, my camera manual (from an EOS 20D) states:

"The camera might not be able to properly display images captured with a different camera or edited with a personal computer or whose file name was changed"

Your manual may contain something similar. I think it's fortunate that the MS app works, rather than a problem that PSE doesn't.

However, this page (http://www.instructables.com/id/ETE4YSZWJYEV2ZBQP1/?relatedLink) explains why this happens and purports to give steps to solve it. I've no idea if it works, I'm afraid, and it doesn't seem particularly easier than the workaround Chuck suggested!

Nick

[winwintoo]

Thanks for the warm welcome, and the many reactions already to my questions!

I would appreciate it if some members of the forum could also try to transfer photos they edited with PSE to their own digital camera, to check if the problem also occurs.

That way, we can determine if it is a generic problem or camera-brand specific.

This is me with my foot in my mouth :o:o

I tried uploading an "untouched" image from my computer to the camera and once the name of the image conformed to the files already on the camera, the image displayed fine.

Then I took the same image and altered it using PSE, followed the same upload/file name procedure and got an error.

Then I downloaded a program called GraphicConverter and used it to alter the same image and uploaded it to the camera. Voila, the image displays.

So the conclusion that it's PSE and not the computer or the camera, seems to be true in my case. Canon PowerShot S400 camera, CF card, Mac computer.

Interesting. Margaret

[Vowani]

Sandisk makes (or used to make) a small device that doubled as a card reader and display platform. You can plug in your card (or flash drive), connect the RCA cables to a TV or DVD player, and look at your images. We bought my father in law one several years ago so he could display pictures on his family room TV. We got it at Circuit City for about $40.

Thanks for the tip about this handy device.

However, it might have exactly the same problem as I am having with my camera, namely that I could potentially also not be able to display images edited with PSE.

[Juergen D]

Hi Nick,
Using that Panasonic Image Creator seems to be pretty straight forward. Thanks for the link. This question comes up pretty regularly.

Juergen

[Vowani]

So the conclusion that it's PSE and not the computer or the camera, seems to be true in my case. Canon PowerShot S400 camera, CF card, Mac computer.

Indeed, I think we have to come to that conclusion: PSE does "something" to the file format, which makes it unrecognizable to the digital camera. The other editors that we have tested do not have this problem (although this does not mean that only PSE has this issue).

[Vowani]

However, this page (http://www.instructables.com/id/ETE4YSZWJYEV2ZBQP1/?relatedLink) explains why this happens and purports to give steps to solve it. I've no idea if it works, I'm afraid, and it doesn't seem particularly easier than the workaround Chuck suggested!

Thanks for the tip, Nick.

I downloaded the Panasonic Image Editor 1.5, and used it to "convert" the images I edited with PSE. These images could indeed be displayed by the digital camera. Unfortunately, this software reduces the image size to 800x600 pixels, making it less useful to me.

Since other editors are available which also do a correct conversion, I will be using one of those for now: I will stick to using Microsoft Office Picture Manager, as I described in my initial post. (Margaret suggested using GraphicConverter, which works too. And there are probably others, but I have not tested any yet).

From what I could learn by reading the web page that Nick pointed to, it seems likely that the problem has something to do with the DCF file format requirements of digital cameras.

It looks like PSE-generated JPEG files do not fully comply to the specs of the DCF format as required by digital cameras, while JPEG files generated by other editors do.

I will report this finding to Adobe.

[winwintoo]

Having made one new discovery this morning, I decided to push the envelope a bit further and try another experiment.

I opened a new blank image in PSE, filled it with some gradient (just to be quick) and saved the file as a .JPG and uploaded it to the camera - of course it wouldn't display.

Next, I took the saved image and opened it in GraphicConverter and then saved it again and uploaded it to the camera.

It displayed just fine on the camera.

WOW!! This is contrary to everything I've ever been told and my own experience with uploading images to a camera.

For anyone with a Mac, you probably have GraphicConverter on you Mac - it seems to be one of the bonus apps that's loaded on every Mac. If not, you can download it from http://www.lemkesoft.com/ The program costs $35USD, but you can try it out before you buy.

There is an option for converting whole libraries of images but I haven't tried it so don't know what's involved.

Sorry Windows users, I don't know of a Windows alternative.

Take care, Margaret

[NickLewis]

From what I could learn by reading the web page that Nick pointed to, it seems likely that the problem has something to do with the DCF file format requirements of digital cameras.

It looks like PSE-generated JPEG files do not fully comply to the specs of the DCF format as required by digital cameras, while JPEG files generated by other editors do.Whilst I think that's true, I think you're placing the blame in the wrong place. The problem is that your camera (and mine, presumably) reads DCF files, wrapped up with a JPG extension. PSE outputs JFIF files, also with a JPG extension. They are both doing what they are designed to.

This isn't a bug in either. Possibly a feature request to ask Adobe to allow PSE to output DCF-flavoured JPG files. If anything, I'd say the fault lies with the authors of the DCF standard for hijacking the JPG file extension, but not specifying that cameras should be able to correctly interpret normal JPGs.

Nick

[Vowani]

Sorry Windows users, I don't know of a Windows alternative.

If you have Microsoft Office, then you can use the included Microsoft Office Picture Manager.

Here's another freeware image editor and convertor for Windows which works:
Faststone Image Viewer - http://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm

[Vowani]

Whilst I think that's true, I think you're placing the blame in the wrong place.

I agree, yours is a better way of describing the cause of the issue than mine.
I have changed my request to Adobe, and submitted a feature request, rather than a bug fix request.

[Wendy]

Has anyone tried Irfanview on them ??

Wendy

[timteamouse]

With my camera, if I enlarge the image bigger than the camera takes them, the camera can not display them. So I would check the dpi and the size of the images your camera can take and keep your editing in those limits and you should be fine. Or at lest that's with the one I own.

[NickLewis]

I've tried to do a bit more digging and found that, for example, DCF only supports the sRGB colour space. So that could be an issue, in addition to the size one that timteamouse has flagged up.

There also seem to be minimum pixel limits, so a camera wouldn't display long thin JPGs for example.

(It's easy to forget that by no means all JPGs are formatted like camera images - Photoshop isn't simply a photo editor - JPGs of all sizes shapes and contents have to be handleable)

Nick

[Vowani]

I've tried to do a bit more digging and found that, for example, DCF only supports the sRGB colour space. So that could be an issue, in addition to the size one that timteamouse has flagged up.

Good lateral thinking ;-)
But the color space and the image size are not the cause of the problem, since I am leaving them unchanged from the camera's original settings, and confirmed that this is indeed the case in the edited images, by inspection of their EXIF data.

So I do believe, based on the evidence so far:

- that PSE saves images by default in a JPEG "flavor" which is incompatible with what digital cameras expect;

- that multiple other image editors are available for Mac and PC, even some freeware ones, which do save the images by default in a format which is compatible with what digital cameras expect, and yet that this causes no ill effects for other uses of these JPEG images, as far as I know.

I have submitted a feature request to Adobe to enhance PSE by providing the user with an option to save JPEG's either in the JFIF or DCF flavor.

[baycruisers]

Thanks for the tip about this handy device.

However, it might have exactly the same problem as I am having with my camera, namely that I could potentially also not be able to display images edited with PSE.

From what I could see, SanDisk no longer makes this device. I have one and have never had problems with it reading any kind of supported card and displaying JPG images, all of which had been edited to some extent.