How much to charge?

[robpendragon]

I've been poking around sites trying to figure out how much to charge people for photos that I have taken. Basically here's what I'll be doing,
1. Going to a site for a few hours to shoot.
2. Editing/resizing/touch-up.
3. Burning to a disc.
4. Providing customer with CD.
I've looked at some rates on some photographers sites & the prices seem really high. Does anybody do this type of work & what should I start at?
This all started with the alpaca pics, the owners of the farm want me to meet other breeders (they were very impressed with my photos) because they are having trouble finding photographers in their area. They are paying a lady $1000 a day right now to take the pics.:eek: Any advice on what to charge would be great:)

[Jodi Frye]

They are paying a lady $1000 a day right now

she must be shooting in the raw ;)

...this would certainly depend on how many pictures a day you will be taking> "Editing/resizing/touch-up " ...charge by the hour. This rate would depend on your area.

[robpendragon]

I was thinking that to but I think some of that is travel , they fly her in from CA. to NJ. I guess I'm trying to find out whats a good price to ask for in the beginning, what if someone said to you that will be $250 for a four hour shoot & that includes the editing & the cd. Does that sound fair?

[Wendy]

Jodi ...

That needed a coffee warning !! :D:D:D

Wendy

[AngelicKim]

Hi Rob, I have been trying to figure out pricing as well for weddings. I am in shock when I see what the going rate is. In your case I think that considering what they are use to paying now that $250 in a great fee for them. You have to keep in mind what your time is worth and that would seem fair to me. You also may want to consider the copywrite issue. Are you giving the client full copywrite ownership or simply permission to use and print?

[robpendragon]

Hi Rob, I have been trying to figure out pricing as well for weddings. I am in shock when I see what the going rate is. In your case I think that considering what they are use to paying now that $250 in a great fee for them. You have to keep in mind what your time is worth and that would seem fair to me. You also may want to consider the copywrite issue. Are you giving the client full copywrite ownership or simply permission to use and print?

Well I think because they will be using the pictures for commercial applications such as web sites, ads & for animal trade info that giving them full rights would be better, what do you think?:)

[AngelicKim]

Rob, that is what I was thinking the photos would be for. My thought was that the $250 would be worth your time for the work. But they are going to profit from your work and you won't. I personally would get another $100 or so for the actual CD and copywrite. I don't see you having any problem getting $350 to $400 since they are use to paying $1000.

[LeeOtsubo]

I think you devalue all photography and photographers if you charge too little. They're currently paying $1000/per day so they're used to paying for good photography. An advantage you have is proximity. If there's a problem or re-shoot, you can be there immediately. Also, in the US, you own the copyright the moment you release the shutter unless you give it away in a work-for-hire contract. What if you later want to enter the photo in a contest or simply use it in your portfolio? How would you feel if that photo showed up in International Alpaca Breeders Magazine as the June centerfold and it was credited to the owner and not you?

Photos of alpacas probably don't have a lot of stock value but one never knows. If you transfer all rights, the cost should be considerably more.

PS time is usually charged on a T&M basis except for very minor levels, crop, sharpen.

If they looked around, there are, literally, thousands of photographers perfectly capable of doing just about any photography in the NY/NJ area but you have an edge because they've seen your work. I would start at $1000/day and point out all the advantages you bring to the table. You might also want to know all possible uses for the images. Finally, it's a good idea to make sure the woman from CA isn't someone's DD or SIL.

p.s. - the # of photos you take per day is irrelevant. It's the # of photos you contract to deliver.

[troush]

Lee,

I appologize for my ignorance, but what is "T&M basis"? (Not that I'm getting paid to do photography, but maybe someday... YKWIM?)

-Trish

[Rusty]

T&M = time and material

"material" may also include non-material out-of-pocket expense; the person charging $1000/day may also be adding (as material) airfare costs, hotel, rental car, etc. If you were producing prints, material would cover paper and ink costs.

The obvious alternative would be simply a flat charge of "so much money" for the "package of work".

Rusty

(PS - I'm talking as a former businessman that occasionally used consultants but the concept of T&M applies to any kind of personal services work)

[LeeOtsubo]

Lee,

I appologize for my ignorance, but what is "T&M basis"? (Not that I'm getting paid to do photography, but maybe someday... YKWIM?)

-Trish

Time & Materials. Many people don't think to include the time to set up, think a through a process, try different approaches, etc. Also, what if they don't like what you do? Do you have wording in the contract re: retouch/redo? Materials include proofs to check the image before printing, CD blanks, ink to print the CD, CD folders, etc, etc.

Always keep in mind that it's not the image a customer pays for, it's your knowledge and expertise. A plumber in southern CA charges $85/hour. Can you honestly tell me a skilled photographer is worth less than a plumber?

Please don't take offense to what I'm saying but the market for skilled photography is taking a serious hit because everyone with a dSLR is working for peanuts. The same thing happened, to a lesser degree, when 35mm SLRs were first introduced. In 10 years, the market will stabilize as people realize that "Uncle Ernie" with his fancy camera can't produce as good a wedding album as a pro with 20 years experience but, in the meantime, many pros will get out of the business and the remaining pros will be charging an arm & a leg.

Just my US$0.03 (adjusted for inflation) :)

[troush]

Thanks Rusty and Lee... I became a Stay At Home Mom when my daughter was born. I was a programmer before that, but never did contract work - I always worked for a Fortune 500/1000 sized company. I don't know all these "Pay by the Job" things, or contract work type things. Just good information for me to know for whenever I decide to go back to work (or IF I decide to go back to work ;) ).

(My husband is an engineer and very handy DIYer (do-it-yourself-er) - I keep telling him he should become a plumber, it would be less stress, especially at $85 an hour...)

Thanks,
Trish

[LeeOtsubo]

...(My husband is an engineer and very handy DIYer (do-it-yourself-er) - I keep telling him he should become a plumber, it would be less stress, especially at $85 an hour...)

I started life as an engineer and sold big-ticket systems as a Sales exec. I made serious $$$ most of my career but I never really enjoyed what I did. I've been teaching photography now for close to 8 years and it's the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on! :D Tell your hubby that there is life after engineering...

[Jodi Frye]

rob, got to thinking about this....you said $250, they are paying $1000...so heck, $500/day sounds like a deal all the way around (earlier today i was going to say $400 but changed my mind....but $400. for shots and added expensises and $100 for cd...that comes to 500 so there you have it... :)

[deedeeO]

Hi Rob,
Some photographers out here in the Bay Area charge a flat rate of $300 for a one hour session, which includes printed 4x6 proofs (approx 100; depending on photographer), and copyright to images - whether digital or negatives. I think everyone here has a point to not sell yourself short from the start. You can start high, and always negotiate down. But a flat rate in your case may be the way to go with this client. Good luck!!

[Rusty]

Rob, one last comment on T&M or T&E vs. Flat Fee.

I have seen unfortunate situations in business where one or more customers will get fixated on some very minor "E" or "M" item and start an argument, "What do you mean, $15.50 for whatever?, I can get it down the street for $12." And on and on and item by item. Forget that the basic charge may be thousands of dollars ... when you start breaking out little stuff, you invite controversy.

Maybe that's why wedding photogs usually quote flat fee for a defined package + fixed schedule for additional prints. There is nothing to quibble about, the prices are agreed in advance.

I have no desire to do what you are considering but, if I did, Flat Fee for a very specifically defined work product is the way I would do it. I would never charge by the hour because I'm not a Pro and, thus, would be screwing my customer. Somebody like Lee could probably do in an hour or less something that might take me all day.

Rusty

[robpendragon]

Thanks everyone for the help,this gives me a basic idea & filled me in on a few things I did not know. Basically I'm looking to make extra money on my hobby. Maybe years down the road to get more serious about it. Just seems I have a lot of people asking me to do work for them. I did a lot of film photography a few years back but then I put it down because of the cost. I wish I never stopped doing it. The DSLR has been like a breath of fresh air for me.
Thanks again guys:D

[hukari]

I've been teaching photography now for close to 8 years and it's the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on! :D Tell your hubby that there is life after engineering...

This has been a very interesting thread for me, though it will never be the case that I will ever use this info for photography. I was interested since I also do freelance work (translating) and pricing is always a problem.

Lee, a comment on your post...just imagine what fun it would be if you shot in the raw like Jodi suggested!!:eek:

Good luck on your venture, Rob.

[karen donnybrook]

Lee, a comment on your post...just imagine what fun it would be if you shot in the raw like Jodi suggested!!:eek:

Reeeka :o :twisted: :o

Karen

[kevq]

Found this theme instructive. I've no intention of doing any commercial work.
I do mine mainly for friends and family, at last I've persuaded them that gifts of printing paper and inks are acceptable recompense for my efforts. I even accept wine as payment!! For strangers who ask for prints I charge about £7.50 for a 10" x 8". Good luck to any one who ventures into business but don't sell yourself short.
Kev.

Doing it in the "raw" would guarantee a complete absence of clients in my case!!!:D

[hukari]

Reeeka :o :twisted:

Karen

Sorry, Karen, but I couldn't resist!:cool:

Especially after reading Jodi's post and first thinking, "Why would shooting RAW cost more??!!":p

[AngelicKim]

I haven't reposted since Lee's post yesterday because I wasn't quite sure how I wanted to work my thoughts to his post. Firstly, I think Rob's work or any good creative photographer's work is worth more than the approximately $400 I suggested. If he had said he was going to make a career of it I would have suggested that he charge much more as the other photographer did. I have seen Rob's Deviant Art gallery site and his work is so creative and beautiful his time is worth much more than $400.

Secondly, being one of those dSLR photographers trying to break into this extremely competitive business here in Midwest Michigan, I have felt the need to charge less than others only to get my foot in the door. I set the lower prices as Specials or Limited Time offers. It is a hard business to get into and sometimes you have to charge less and be competitve to the studios like Olan Mills instead of the big independants. You have to start somewhere to get your name out there. Doing things for free (the magazine I did when I found this awesome forum) or at a lower cost is necessary for some of us. I have been doing photography on and off for about 20 years and until the past two years I have been struggling to get my name out there and really get into the business.

Lee, I don't mean anything against you or your statement, I just think that it is probably hard for you to see how hard is it for us Newbies trying to get started out. I am not saying my work is worth less than those who charge much more, but I have to start somewhere and I am sure they did too.

Ok, I am writing a book now. I could go on but I won't. Sorry for the rant.

[LeeOtsubo]

...I set the lower prices as Specials or Limited Time offers.

Kim,
Presenting low prices as Specials or Limited Time Offers is absolutely the right way to go about it. Dealing with customers is often no different than dealing with children. You have to set firm limits and stick with it. Otherwise, they will take advantage at every turn.

In Rob's case, he's in the catbird seat (position of strength, to all non-native English speakers) because they've already seen his work and, most imprtantly, they approached him.

All this isn't to say that if National Geographic were to call me for an assignment, I wouldn't soil my pants and drop my prices. Of course, with my luck, they'd want me to spend a year in Antarctica, photographing pygmy snow worms. I hate snow and cold!

Reka,
Are you trying to ruin my business? Anyone from this forum who now signs up for my classes will have a grotesque vision in their minds as they listen to me over the Internet. They'll fear that I'll turn on the video feed! :D

[Simone]

Rob, I'm not an expert, but just to chime in with a couple of things to think about in addition to rates. One is regarding income tax (you would have income from photography and possible irs reporting implications, although you may not be making a "profit" per se), and another is whether being a "professional" that is selling/charging would make a difference to you versus being an amateur. There are some things such as some contests etc. that distinguish between professionals and amateurs, etc. So just as things to think about, the possible tracking/reporting of compensation for tax purposes and the professional status... These may not be of any consequence or you may have already considered them but just to chime in...

[robpendragon]

Good point Simone, thanks:D

[kimh]

Simone--did wonder about that aspect.
http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/5.gif
Kimh

[LeeOtsubo]

...One is regarding income tax (you would have income from photography and possible irs reporting implications, although you may not be making a "profit" per se),...

If you're working, you're already filing a tax return (if you're not, I don't want to know about it) so the decision seems to be, "Do I get paid for doing something I enjoy or should I just give it away?"

...There are some things such as some contests etc. that distinguish between professionals and amateurs, etc...

Typically, there's language such as, "...preponderance of revenue from photography or photography-related activities." or "...generates 50% or more of his/her income from photography or photography-related business." when determining the status of a professional vs amateur. If Rob is making more than 50% of his income from this one job, I need to call the alpaca farm down the road from me. :D

[AngelicKim]

My thoughts were the same as Lee's on this one.

[LeeOtsubo]

Rob...
Just came across this old thread while researching more forum tips. Whatever happened on this job?