An ethical question

[lindajay]

Now and then I get a PM from someone -- usually someone new to the forum and not a subscriber -- asking for instructions for how I did some effect I used on a photo in my gallery. I'm sure many of you have had this happen. When the effect is the direct result of a video or written tutorial in the Subscriber area, I always feel caught between a rock and a hard place. My heart says, "Tell them just how to do it." But my head says, "That's not fair to all the subscribers who paid for the right to the tutorials." I'd like to hear what you all think is the right thing to do. Just so you know what I've done in the past . . . I sometimes give them a rough idea of what I've done (without great detail), and then sing the praises of subscribing, telling them about all of those wonderful tutorials/videos. But this usually leads to further PMs, asking for more details. What do you think is the right thing to do???

[Norm F]

Good question Linda,

I don't think that there's a huge ethics issue here. Ideas like, "here's a neat PS trick" are not subject to copyright. You've learned it, now you know it and you're free to share it. Perhaps the question of fairness is valid. After all, you paid the subscription fee. Why shouldn't they? At the end of the day though this forum probably wouldn't be a such a friendly and helpful place if people were guarded about sharing. I can see that it might get difficult getting tied up in a PM swap where one feels like they have to answer in spite of the fact that they're busy. That's the great thing about the open forum. You can jump in when you want and not feel pressure to be here when you're swamped. Why not just respond to the PM with, "I'd really like to help but I'm just buried at work. Please throw that question out to the forum and you'll find lots of people who are ready and willing to help."

[lindajay]

Norm, thanks for your reply. I'm not concerned about the time involved in working with someone, as long as it's not looked upon by other forum members as "wrong." As I said, helping out is what my heart says to do :) Other comments???

[Wendy]

Hi ...

This really is a difficult one ... but my personal view is that subscription fees not only give us access to the tutorials but those fees also keep the site up and running. So I feel that if I just share subscription area techniques on the forum or by PM then not only is it unfair on the people who have subscribed but also others then won't feel any need to subscribe ...

Without subscriptions then how long will the forum exist? ...

Wendy

[mrod]

I think it's a good question too, Linda.

Maybe it's sort of like a plate of free samples. A store gives you a small piece of cheese, or a cracker with a small amount of spread on it in hopes of enticing you to buy the whole brick of cheese, or jar of spread, or whatever. Now, it would be wrong to dump the whole plate into a bag and take it, but a couple pieces, no problem. It just serves to whet the appetite a bit. Is your situation a bit like this? If a person asked for and you were supplying directions for most of the projects, that would be a problem. But it sounds like you just give them a taste, and, like you do, suggest "buying the block of cheese," so to speak.

Perhaps this is a good analogy, perhaps not...

Mike

[Jodi Frye]

it has happened to me....the mail also included a blunt " I don't want to suscribe "...

I ignored these pm's.

[Wendy]

Hi Mike ...

I like that analogy ... and I agree about the tasters :)

Wendy

[lindajay]

I'm really glad to hear this open discussion. Mike -- good analogy! And, Jodi, yes, that would be a "deal breaker" kind of statement, wouldn't it?

[GaryK]

Linda

Good one :)

I usually refer them to the subscriber area first. I tend to agree with Wendy about the subscription supporting the site. I would subscribe here even if there wasn't a newsletter just to support this place and the subsciber area.

If they persist, without being pesky, then I may give a broad overview but even then I try to be vague and very general. :)


On a side note.. is there a way to tell if somebody is a subscriber or not?

[Wendy]

Gary ...

I usually look and see if they have a Gallery :o :o ... its not 100% but most people who subscribe do start a Gallery :)

Wendy

[GaryK]

Oooops .. I thought about it too long. :D

Good analogy Mike. But I go to Costco for lunch :D:D

[Jan Ruthig]

Hi,

I think you can tell who are subscribers if you look under Quick Links, Who's Online. The members name's are a different color and alphabetical at the top of the list. :) Correct me if I am wrong.....

[GaryK]

Thanks Jan.. I don't think I have played with that tab that much.

Ok.. back to our regularly scheduled program. :)

[mrod]

But I go to Costco for lunch

No joke, Gary, when he was in college, my brother did on several lean occasions...:o

As for the list of members, is that a list of subscribers, or just a list of people who have signed up for the forum? I'm thinking it's the latter...

Mike

[Jan Ruthig]

Thanks Jan.. I don't think I have played with that tab that much.

Ok.. back to our regularly scheduled program. :)

Gary,

I very frequently use the Quick Links, Subscribed Threads one to check the forums that I have posted a message on. I realize that the forums have a blue checkmark by them but overnight they can have moved so far down the list that I forget to look for them. With the subscribed threads I can remember to check them again. Much needed memory jogger for my poor tired, old brain. :D :D


This is an interesting forum about the ethical issue. I can see where you would have to "draw the line in the sand" as to how much to give out to non-subscribers.

[kayser]

Linda- I've had that problem too. I generally help in general terms and suggest subscribing for all the details (and for much more help than I can give!). I've seen it too, where the person PMs me or asks in the forums how to do something multiple times AFTER getting a recommendation to subscribe- a situation more like Jodi described. Then I'm disinclined to help. It's fine to choose not to subscribe, but then you don't get access to the subscriber benefits. There are, however, things that I think are in the public domain, along the lines of what Norm said- how to do selective coloring or how to change a photo black and white are two examples. That's general knowledge that I feel comfortable in sharing. Information on those general techniques is available for free in muliptle places- books, other forums, other online tutorials. The strange thing to me is that people who don't want to subscribe but want the information end up spending way more time trying to get people to help them through individual tutorials, and in written form, than they would if they just paid for the subscription. Maybe it's simply a matter of not having the money, but time and a low frustration level are also important things on my list. This is an interesting thread!

[Daviskw]

Hello all

I would like to present an alternative view. I am one of the non-subscribers and I have thought of this question more than once. Just as an explanation not an excuse I am disabled and on a very limited income. $49 IS a very large expenditure although not completely out of the question.

I felt guilty taking advantage of the people and knowledge presented here. I often read posts but limited my questions just for that reason. I decided the way to repay, if not in a financial way, was to contribute knowledge I had accumulated to both subscribers and non-subscribers.

I believe people coming here and seeing the vast amount of information and the friendly atmosphere would want to subscribe because of it.

I appreciate all subscribers and this site and through them the opportunity to learn and contribute.

Butch

[jo]

Butch, you are one of our best contributors of explanations and tips. I didn't realize you were not a subscriber. You have no reason to feel guilty about it. Your explanations to the rest of us are worth a lot!

[randy_nacol2002]

Butch, I agree with Jo,and understand fully,since I too am on Disablity and limited on funds,I deceided to go ahead and subscribe but I had come into alittle extra to be able to do so. Do feel gulty

[BettyC]

Butch--you're one of the best! I always read & paste your explanations into Word, even if it's something that I'm not wondering about at the moment. Thank you!

[kayser]

Butch- Thanks for offering a different perspective. I must say, I would subscribe to YOUR site if you had one, because I for one learn a lot from you about the technical aspects of PSE, especially making the most of images and fixing them. I regularly go back to posts to try to better understand the PSE process. You certainly contribute and you shouldn't feel the least bit guilty about it.

[Shari]

Yes Butch - I have a binder full of explanations from you. I really appreciate all your help and the videos. Thank you. When I ran into all the problems with the adware earlier in the year and had to pay a lot for service and more protection I started to think about all the costs involved with keeping updated in my computer and camera world. I have started a bank account called "my computer" and put money in each month. I have to know that I will always be able to afford my hobby. It brings me such pleasure. And Linda, I think it is something you have to decide for yourself in each case - take pride in the fact you are being asked. Your work is wonderful.
Shari

[lindajay]

First of all -- thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread, and helped me think through all the ins and outs of the issue. Secondly, Butch, I CERTAINLY wasn't speaking or thinking of you! You are such a very unselfish contributor to this forum! The ones who give me that little "I wonder what to do" feeling are those whom I've never seen nor heard of before, and who seem only to ask questions via PMs, not contribute to the forum. Butch, I'd feel terrible to think that you thought I had someone like you in mind. To me, you're ONE OF THE GANG! :D

[NRiceDesigns]

My personal perspective is that I was under the impression that non-members would not be able to post or PM anyone. It's usually that way on other forums.

As far as the $49 fee... I'm on disability because I have a serious life-threatening rare disease & an alphabet soup of non-related chronic diseases. I'm also separated from my spouse & I'm barely eeking by. (God knows I miss the income of a IS administrator, but I've been unable to work for 8+ yrs. (Gosh, you don't miss it until it's gone.) I went from having it all to losing it all due to serious chronic illness of both me & my spouse & caring for my elderly mother.

After discovering this wonderful forum I had to wait a couple of months to come up with the funds to join, but I didn't think it would be fair to not pay my share. The value of what I have learned far outweighs the $4.08/mo. it costs. This is such a wonderful group & it has filled a huge emptiness.

Please don't misunderstand... I am NOT dissing anyone who is on disability, using the forum & not paying. I'm just saying this is what I have to do to feel OK with it. It doesn't seem fair for some to pay to post & PM & others not to. If I can't afford to renew next year, I won't post. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me because I may die young (depending on what you call young ;) . I hope no gets angry with me for voicing my opinion.

[TonyW]

AFIK there's no way to tell who is a subscriber or not - only who is a forum member. I'm always inclined to reply to "how to" PM's with a polite note recommending posting the question on the forum. Some of them I suspect are sent to a bunch of people in the hope of getting an answer (or maybe to compare different answers :) ). By posting the questions others can benefit from the answer or even give a better answer. There's often lots of ways to get to the same result in Elements and I know I've learnt a lot of new ways of doing things just by reading answers to questions. The reason this forum is so successful is there are lots of people asking questions and lots of people giving answers and I like to be able to read them all :)

Tony

[Wendy]

Hi ...

The forum is an open forum so anyone can join, post messages and send pms ... I think that is good as it gives people the chance to drop by, see what its like and then decide if they want to subscribe and take advantage of all the other things that are available in the Subscriber area.

In all honesty I think thats what the great majority of people do and I am pretty sure that most of the people who don't subscribe, for whatever reason, don't expect to be given details of subscriber tutorials. I suspect that its just the odd one or two who do ..

I get lots of PMs from people who are stuck and I'm always happy to help but if there is a tutorial about the particular effect then I do direct them to it. I just think that is the fair thing to do :)

Wendy

[NMarti]

Butch
I had no idea you were not a subscriber. Your tuts are excellent and the one I use regularly about getting rid of the jagged edges on a cutout is wonderful.

I wasn't sure how I felt about this but after reflecting I think that giving full instructions in a PM would not be the right thing unless it is something you came up with that has not been learned from the subscriber area. That said, it would still be more fair to refer them to the forum and give the explanation for all to share. If someone says they will not subscribe, refer them to a search engine. There's plenty of free stuff out there and they are more than welcome to spend their time searching for it. I had that happen to me and they did not want to subcribe and in fact wanted me to send them a tutorial. I flatly refused and they became angry but went away.

I agree if we give too much away then the incentive to subscribe is gone and so is our forum. Hosting a website of this magnitude is not cheap. Sharing is a good thing, but taking advantage of it by asking people to give away something for free is not.

[mrod]

Wow. I guess I have to count myself as fortunate, as I haven't really been asked, point blank, how to do something that could be found in the subscriber area. Just a few general things (using a layer mask, some sharpening, stuff like that), and a couple questions about a stained glass project that Jo did awhile back, and gave me permission to share with a few folks via video.

Hmmm...maybe that's a comment on my talent and ability...:D:D I'm kidding. I'm secure (gotta be, as a teacher of middle schoolers, or any age, for that matter). I'm not fishing for compliments!

Mike

[Norm F]

Butch,

You are certainly a great contributor to this forum. I think you give much more than you take. Have you ever had to ask a question here? :)

Again, this really isn't a question of ethics. Once you have learned something the knowledge is yours to share if you so choose. Surely you guys don't think Dave Cross and Matt Kloskowski always knew how to work Photoshop. :D No, they bought books, watched videos, practiced and now they get paid to share what they learned from others. I'm reading one of Dave's book right now and he's said a number of times, 'I learned this trick from..."

[e-mailsucks]

Wow :eek: ! Don't you think that you all are starting to sound a little bit clicky? There is so much more to this forum than just how to do things. Most of the forum is just talking between friends and having fun. I get a lot more out of this forum than learning how to do things. Heck, look at what I haven't done and I'm on my second of a three year deal here. I don't even get my Newsletters on time, ever. You've posted a very difficult question to answer Linda, but maybe it's because you're doing so well in your work and viewers are wanting to accomplish what you have done. Believe me, no one has or ever will ask me how I did something, my stuff is boring in comparison. I think you should be proud of your accomplishments and take PMs as a compliment to your work. I'm sure Wendy gets loads of PMs. See you're getting to become a Master as she is.

Brian :)

[jazzfisher]

It's a very good question, Linda--although no one has ever Pm'd me on how to do anything--I understand why. I guess, you would have to pick your actions on how you feel about each PM indivually & use your best judgement at that time.
I have had strange PM's where I thought the person was trying to pick me up or something---but that's a whole other ball of wax. (none of the regulars):o

[e-mailsucks]

:eek: Sherry, I thought that was supposed to be our little secret!

Brian :)

[jazzfisher]

Brian,
Oh, I thought that was a joke PM :D :D :D

Haven't you gone on vacation yet???????:cool:

[GaryK]

Sherry

What are you doing home this time of night???

[jazzfisher]

Gary,
John just got home from playing golf--now he's making dinner & then we'll go to the wine bar.... Meanwhile I'm working on photos.......:D

[virgo1]

Gary,
It's early still where Sherry is. I stayed home tonight too. The Orton Park Festival is not fun when most of the skeeters in Wisconsin (state bird BTW) are there. Brian must be back from vacation.
Eva;)

[jazzfisher]

Eva,
Did you have a nice birthday??:)

[GaryK]

Eva

It was earlier than I thought :D. I thought it was around 8, West coast time.

I guess Im a little sleepy:)

I'm off for a week starting today.. took my car to a fundraising car wash, had to get it towed to the dealership (not the washers fault) Hopefully I will have a car Monday.. don't need one for Sunday unless Will gives us a "get in your car" assignment this week.
Nothing going on except pre school shopping and hopefully taking my son to his new apartment..:D

[jazzfisher]

Gary,
It's 7:45 Pacific Coast time (daylight savings)
Car problems & computer problems---the worst!!!:twisted: Hope things get fixed okay.

[mswnow]

I confess. I'm guilty of this myself, (except i've never PMed anyone) I agree with most of you, I dont nessisarily think its wrong but I dont nessisarily think its right. I know thats a wishey washey answer, but Its a fine line. My guess is that most of the PMs are from people who are looking for an answer for something, most likley on a search engine. I know thats how I found this site in the first place. While not quite as honorable as Butch, my explanation for not subscribing (I really want to, and intend to when I get more time to invest in my pictures) is that I started on this forum earlier this summer, initially as one of the people trying to get answers, but I truley considered it a luckey find, and it wasnt till a month later when I got back from a trip that I got more involved. I start school back on monday, and $50 is alot for 2 weeks. 4.08 a month is not bad, But I dont anticipate having much time to play in photoshop over the next 5 months, so I couldnt really justify spending 50 of my 150 dollars on it at this point.

I am glad that you are considering this, because I think there are many people who wouldnt give it a seccond thought. I actually think this thread should be made a stickey, as a possible deterant to people.

I hope people dont consider my posts to be clumped in this catagory. My current plan is to wait and ask for a subscription for xmas, unless I end up with more time than I expect this fall.

By the way, ive been wondering, is a subscription to the magazine the same as a subscription to the online stuff?

[kayser]

Hi Michael- A subscription to the magazine includes access to all the tutorials in the subscriber area- I think there are 150 or 200 at this point?!

To be clear- the forum is definitely for asking questions, whether you're a subscriber or not. THere's lots to learn about PSE, and a great community here, and you can learn a lot just be reading the posts and looking through the galleries. I think the issue is when people don't want to subscribe but want to get the benefits anyway.

[GaryK]

Sherry

Car problem is more of a hassle than anything else.. dealership is a 5 minute walk and the car is a company car, so no expense to me for repairs.

Isn't this your getting ready to go out time? :D You know the two hurs of makeup and stuff. Kind of like the photo of my baby girl I posted for the mirror challenge.:p


mswnow

Yup newletter sub and web area sub are one and the same.
No probs with asking questions thats what keeps things lively.

[jazzfisher]

Gary,
Only doing the 1 hour Make-up job tonight.....I missed your mirror challenge is in your gallery?--I've been going like a chicken with my head cut off....



Michael,
ask all you want!

[e-mailsucks]

Sherry, I just got back from the US and learned one thing, I'll never go back again. It's a long story and I'll PM, no, I'll email you the whole story.
Eva, was it your Birthday? I'm sorry, as you know I've been busy with other things lately. Happy Birthday and so sorry I missed it.

Brian :o

[jazzfisher]

Brian,
Your not to late--Eva's birthday is today.
Yes, email me.....

[karen donnybrook]

Perhaps we could have some guidance from Tami, Matt or Dave on this subject.

After I joined the forum but before I subscribed, I was trying to do a something and I had a subscribed member PM me with some hints and tips and explicit instructions not to let on where I had gained my information.

[Wendy]

Karen ...

Sounds like it gave you enough of a taster and you joined :D :D

Wendy

[GaryK]

Sherry

Nope .. ummm photo challenge #44 I believe.. whatever last weeks was.

[trola]

I agree with the opinion of friendliness. the forums I've visited where visitors are treated like invaders turns many off. Steering us to the subscriber area with a little taste of what we can get drew me in. You all have so much knowledge to share I think you draw alot of interested parties, if I don't like what I get for my $$$ I don't have to renew but if we didn't get a little food what would pull us in.
& as far as galleries I still don't have one:o between time and having something good enough to post I'll eventually get one up ...

[Wendy]

Hi Troyla ...

You don't have to wait until you have anything really special to put in your Gallery ... just try out an effect and then post it.

... Its just really nice to see things that people are doing :)

Wendy

[karen donnybrook]

Wendy,

I had already decided to subscribe but was waiting for the right time to tell Michael :eek:

Karen

[tfry]

Hrm my advice is if you live in Florida..RUN...oops wrong advice for this forum:) Sorry the NHC is trying to give me a heart attack.

Ok seriously now :)
IF someone questions you on a technique you learned from the subscriber area, my response would go something like this..

I learned this from our subscriber area tutorials rave about the tutorials of course and the newsletter yada yada and then answer the question.. Don't do a point for point of the whole technique just give a general description of how you did it.. ( take your photo, add adj layer, then I used filter blah a couple of times etc etc no setting or anything just a general what for.

Then make sure you mention there are 150 plus step by step tutorials they can view as well as the great newsletter...(think I said that already, but you get the point) that way you aren't offending anyone, you're being somewhat helpful and letting them know all that is great with a subscription:) and if they comeback with another question another time then refer them to the subscription area (you already gave them a taste of the cheese, now they need to head to Publix and get a block of it) as was pointed out early in the thread on this topic. ( I love cheese and any senario envolving it!)
Also a good approach is the post the question in the forum, that way if someone keeps asking for stuff that is in the subscriber area then everyone can pleasantly lead them to the Cheese Shop!
Sharing knowledge is great and fun but the point was made that you paid for that content and that the money you paid keeps the gerbils fed so don't give away the shop just provide samples (like at the mall on the weekends)

Ok all this cheese and samples at the mall has made me hungry! Gonna go find some Cheese :D

PS for those that are members of the forum sharing tutorials and not subscribers for whatever reasons they may have, if you're contributing knowledge that you learned elsewhere well then thats a give and take between you and other members. The lead them to the cheese shop senario is for people who are either unaware of the subscriber advantages or just want to see what they can get for free. We are a friendly community and know each other well enough to know who's on which side of the cheese...ok I really need to get something to eat!

[mom to 4]

Wow Linda! Really good question! For a minute or two, I wondered if I had been one that asked...I ask How'd ya do that ...all the time, but then I realize that I subscribed after looking at this forum for only about an hour......so I guess, if I was a subscriber and asked.....then it's OK! :D

I must say when people ask me questions.....not that it happens all that much......I had never thought about it. I do sing the praises of the tutorials (and Wendy :D ), but I would generally tell them what I did.......but then again, I am practically certain I would have probably left some really important part out, just because I can't remember everything anymore and I might not remember where I got the idea......another member, book or tutorial!

Thanks for the thought provoking question though.....It's really good food for thought, and yikes, I am really sorry if I have in the past done something wrong! I apologize, just in case!

[John L Gray]

When I people ask me how I did a particuliar effect to a photo, I generally work in a few comments about the "greatness of PSE Techniques and many benifits of subscribing. I think I can say for all of us,we learn so much from the PET.

Some people want something for nothing! You problely will not change their position or attitude in life. Fortunately, these folks are in the minority from my experience.

Recently, I had used a frame from "JODI's Misssing Styles" cd on a photo and asked if I would share the frame with this photographer. I said I would do one thing better and would give him her web address so he could purchase his own cd. That ended the conversation. Some people have a half full glass and others have half empty one. A matter of choice.

I want to thank you of you that share thought ideas, etc. that make me and others better at what we do......

John

[Vesta]

Linda as all have said this is a great question and I guess you have to judge each PM individually and direct them to subscriber area My story is this: I was looking for something to help me with pictures and I can't even remember how I found you all but I know what made me stay around and to join the subscriber area. It was the willingness of all of you to help me; your graciousness caused me to download a trial version of PSE4 ( I had 1 and hardly ever used it) and join the subscriber area berfore I had even brought my own PSE4. The knownledge here is awesome and where not just friendliness is found but in many instances a very very geniune concern for the people is felt. I know I have used a lot of adjectives to describe this forum(the people) and I will throw in a few more your are a bunch of encouraging, patient, silly, funny, loving and wonderful people.

Butch you are fantastic and have helped me so much. It is people with your knowledge that keep us coming back.

Vesta

[AngelicKim]

I found this forum looking for help to learn PSE3. Right now I am only a forum member. I have stated before that I keep meaning to be a full subscriber but everytime I get on the site the first thing I do is check the new post. Which is a big mistake because I just keep reading and learning and forget to go back and register. I have asked questions on tutorials but only the ones that someone post in the forum. If there is a tutorial mentioned in a thread that you have to be a full subscriber I don't ask questions on it. This forum is free for everyone to get help and we get excellent help from all of you. You are all great.

In my opinion, since I am not a full subscriber yet, it is not right for me to ask for help on something that is not in the free forum. I have not PM's anyone unless they have PM'd me first to help me on something that is posted. I have done a few of the things tutorials posted in the threads such as Linda's tutorial on the Slatted effect (now becoming known as the HF effect) and I have posted these for suggestions and help because I thought that was ok and what this forum was about. Friends helping friends.

Basically I am saying that for those of us who have not paid the full subscription for whatever reason should not being asking for help from the members on things that are in the subscriber area. Friends helping friends is one thing and it is another when you abuse that friendship.

That being said, I hope I did not affend anyone with this post and I am off to finally take the time to register for the full subscription because there is far too much on Elements that I see here and want to learn the right way.

[graficalicus]

FWIW, I get PM'd &/or e-mailed a lot about this or that technique, or just general PS/PSE questions. I'm not a subscriber, so I have absolutely no problem explaining how to do stuff.

if you're very uncomfortable giving out info (you shouldn't be - this forum will exist & thrive with or without the $49 fee), recommend a google search. There are a bazillion free sites & tutorials that will probably show them how to do whatever it is they want to do.

[Jodi Frye]

Thanks John ! I appreciate what you did. I do get quite a bit of Missing Styles mail...it is very possible he/she did in fact mail me....and just didn't say ' thanks' to you...plenty of those out there. Tho your thoughts on the matter may have been quite on target. Don't ya just love those types that want everything and find a way to get it without sacrifice ?? :rolleyes:

[Pauline]

This is an interesting thread. We all learn through not only this site, but through books we purchase, other sites we see, etc. I think it's really a judgement call regarding helping someone. When they ask for specific written instructions and constantly want more help, then I think that's too much. As far as sharing here........well we have all learned from each other and I think that's what makes this forum so wonderful.

There is a big difference between someone asking for help on a specific topic or someone constantly trying to gain info for free. It really is a give and take thing and from what I have seen in the last year+, those that start out as taking in the beginning because they are new and lack the knowledge, end up in the end giving!

[Inspeqtor]

Gary ...

I usually look and see if they have a Gallery :o :o ... its not 100% but most people who subscribe do start a Gallery :)

Wendy

Wendy, I am a new subscriber here (joined last May 31, 2006) I have not yet started a Gallery, but I have thought about it. I am not a professional photographer, just a hobby for me. I do have a few pictures I think are pretty good. I am just learning to use PES4. I have taken several of the online video courses offered here, they have been a GREAT help. Now if I could just use the lessons I learned enough to be able to REMEMBER how to do them! As for starting a Gallery, my concern is that what if someone else likes my photograph and takes it, and uses it for their own profit and glory? I like the idea of the video that Matt K did using the watermark, but so far, I have not seen anyone in the Gallery use that. What are other peoples thoughts on this?

Another question I have is... in the forum how does one find a message or thread if they want to see the answers, such as any answers to this?


Thank you all for your help.

[lindajay]

Well, since I started this discussion (and I really think it turned into a thought-provoking one), I feel a little bit compelled to clarify a few things. First of all -- in asking my question, I had NO ONE who posts and contributes here on the forum in mind. The people I was referring to were people who only PM asking for tutorials. Secondly, I totally agree that the generous contributions and help and kindness of this forum is what makes it great, and I wasn't questioning or trying to undermine that. I hope that I can, somehow, "be there" for others as you all have "been there" for me.

I am happy, Tami, that you spoke up to give us some guidelines, and I like what you said. I'm comfortable with that approach.

You are all wonderful people, and I feel blessed to be part of this forum, and hope to grow so that I can be more of a contributor. Hope I didn't come across as selfish or mean-spirited in asking the question. It wasn't my intent at all.

[walkingstaff]

It's all a matter of relative value and capability I think. In Butch's case he can't afford the cash easily, but he certainly contributes knowledge. In my case I've little knowledge but can afford the subscription so I do it that way. I joined primarily because of these forums and got the tutes and videos and magazine as a 'value added'. I suspect that the 'cheap' ( in spirit ) types are in a small minority and probably not worth the soul searching :rolleyes:
Oh yeah, I don't have a gallery either. I'm still in the frantic read and try stages. But one of these days.......
Pete

[Wendy]

Hi Inspeqtor,

The images you post in your Gallery are quite small so even if someone did lift them then they wouldn't be able to use them for anything significant ... so selling them is very unlikely.

I honestly have not been concerned about it .. :)

Regarding finding which threads you are interested in ... When you post a reply (before you press Submit reply) sctoll down the screen and you should see Notification Type ... Change that to one of the other options)

Wendy

[Wendy]

... and next to anyone who hasn't started a Gallery yet. Please do its really nice to see things that people are working on :)

Wendy

[GaryK]

One thing that might be getting lost in all this.

I don't think anybody cares who is a subscriber or not when it comes to having some fun on the forums or helping with any problems someone may have.
I actually feel bad if I tell somebody to have a look at tutorial such and such in the subscriber area and the say they aren't a subscriber. :o

[mom to 4]

Gary, you're right (I think that is the second time I've told you you're right:eek: )! I never have thought about who is a subscriber and who isn't unless they say they're not. I just have a really good time on the forum! I must say the cost of the subscription is almost of entertainment value to me too :D , I am on the computer......not out at the movies, not shopping....I am usually right here.....so it could be considered part of my entertainment budget for the year!!:D

[GaryK]

Colleen

I'll try not to let it happen again :D

I can't tell you how much time I spend grinning at the posts.

[virgo1]

I was asked once by pm how to do something. I was fairly new then and couldn't help much. This cyber place is special, I've never had as much fun learning.:D
Eva;)

[Foxhound]

In the past I've paid a lot of money for photography classes. I still get questions from people on what and how to use hyperfocal distance of all things. Of course I always suggest they take a basic photography course but I always take the time to show them the technique they're asking about. No single technique belongs to anyone, paid for or otherwise.

If I had just said something like "take a class and learn it like I did" and not offer to help them? I would be sick for a week!

The idea of NOT helping someone in these forums is unheard of. I can't think of any other forum as OPEN about technique as this one. My hat's off to everyone!

[Frobergs2]

I agree with above, I've had nothing but great experiences here, and I don't think I'd be anywhere near as well-versed as I am now if it weren't for this site, actually I'm sure of it! Sure I've been directed to the Subscribers area a few times for further insight, but I usually receive enough tips to figure it out on my own. I completely see the value of subscribing, yet I also can't imagine that providing descriptions to someone would take away from the Subscriber area's value...there's nothing like having a resource like that available at your fingertips, I think it's value stands regardless.

I'm not a subscriber as of yet, and it's purely for financial reasons. I'm trying to get my Photography business running, and it seems that I need to drop a few bucks here, there any everywhere for something. So I've been holding off for now, but I have full intentions soon enough...

[Byron Gale]

Some thoughts about this stuff, in no order of significance:

- I buy books. I learn things from books. I use the things I've learned from books. I frequently share techniques I've learned from books. I've also lent and borrowed books. Of what am I guilty?

- Should I compartmentalize my knowledge so that I don't share learnings from other forums when I participate here -- or vice versa?

- There used to be a number of tutorials by Wendy, which she freely gave to the open forum. Then forum management "classified" them and are now selling them as part of the subscription area. What if someone has a question about one of those techniques?

[graficalicus]

yeah, that's why I asked awhile back if there was a financial stake for anyone here encouraging membership. I'm kind of walking on eggshells, because I'm often not sure if I should answer a question I know the answer to, or leave it be and see if someone else answers. I'm not sure where the proprietary information line is, in other words.

[Wendy]

Hi ...

Tami actually posted a message earlier in the thread ... here is the link:

http://www.photoshopelementsuser.com/forum/showpost.php?p=143902&postcount=52

Wendy

[Wendy]

Hi Byron ...

About my tuts moving ....

I actually posted nearly 60 tutorials on the forum over an 18 month period and all the images for them were on Pixental as I don't have any webspace of my own. As you know Pixentral only keep the images active for a limited period ... so it was turning into a never ending job of making sure that all the image links (around 200 of them) were still working OK.

Every time I wrote another one it added to the problem :( ... I really wanted to carry on writing tuts but maintaining the links was becoming impossible so I was very grateful to have them hosted by the site. It took all the pressure off me and left me free to do the fun things.

They weren't reclassified ... I just couldn't cope with maintaining the existing ones and carry on doing new ones.

Wendy

[Wags374]

And now Wendy has her own little download section too! :)

[tfry]

Graficalicus,

You are perfectly free to not subscribe, no one has to, the forum is for everyone. You can share whatever information you wish to, no one goes thru the posts to see if someone is posting subscriber content:)I guess I don't understand why are you uncomfortable with my response if you are not a subscriber? It seems that it wouldn't effect you or your sharing of your knowledge. I probably missed something somewhere I'm sure:)

Anyhoo, bottomline is this forum is a great place for learning and sharing how y'all handle it seems to be working fine :D

[kayser]

Graffi- I definitely see your point about PSE tutorials/info being available everywhere (and free too), but one of the selling points of subscribing to this site, for me at least, is having the information available all in one place, and having people around who are working on, or have worked on, the same tutorials, so you can ask questions and compare results. I like the supportive learning process. I also think the forum hosters (and Wendy!) respond to people's requests for tutorials on specific topics, so you can have some say in what you learn next. For more experienced people like you, I can see where those wouldn't be selling points, but it's great that you stop by and support us and join in the conversations!

[mom to 4]

Graffi:

I see you point and really do understand what you are saying. For me, though, I am, unfortunately, not very computer savy, and would never be able to find these things anywhere else. So for me the convenience is well worth the money, like I said earlier, I can sneak this in my entertainment budget, which is very small. Better I pay $50 per year and stay home than go to a mall 2 or 3 times a week and spend God only knows how much!!!!

So as much as I can understand where you're coming from, I'm with Kay on this one....but I certainly do appreciate all you help on the forum!

[lindajay]

Graffi, oh, yes . . . your generosity with us has been awesome! Thank you so much for all that you contribute here, and on your own site. We'd be a less wonderful place without you :o

[OFD678]

It is so easy to be a subscriber and the value is 10 fold. Yes, there is tons of information is on the web. Try to be a new person and figure it all out. Next to impossible unless you have some type of background to start with. $49 dollars for the fourm is so cheap. I pay more in one night to take the kids to the movie!

So, what I say is go to Graffi's site, panos's site and everyone else's site and pay for what you want. Everyone needs to make a living and support their families.

The formum is a great free place to learn. But, if you want answers to stuff that is in the subscriber's area without paying, then I say get lost. Nobody likes a mouch.

my .02 cents.

[Jodi Frye]

All this talk is getting me hungry...for more !

Ok, I'm ready to pay for my Illustrator Newsletter now.....Tami, Dave, Matt....please send me an email before this hits the pavement so that I can prepare.

I like playing in Illustrator and I enjoy learning as much as I can about it...but for some reason it just feels soooooo much more comfortable for me to be involved in a group that shares the same interests as i do ( the same addiction and it's a serious but good one ). I live in an area where I'll probably never get to Photoshop World or meet Dave, Matt or Scott :( and so the Subcription gets me a little closer...super newsletters, super site and super people !!! Sure, everyone knows you can get freebie stuff on line and everyone knows they can go googling for tutorials etc...but that tends to be a 'bore' after a certain amount of time with the program...the subscription just gives you so much more.

[Pauline]

Well said Jodi. Really I think it boils down to the community we have here. We all inspire each other. When we all watch the same tutorial and come up with different ideas and post them, it gives us even more samples of how to do things.

Some people are able to work on their own from tutorials and books (I am one of them), but I never would have gotten as far as quickly as I did without the wonderful video tutorials. They are what really got me going. It's great that there is so much out there that is free, but at the same time as a new person you could be bogged down because you just don't know where to begin, or what to search for. This site is a great place to get a good grounding in the program.

Everyone has their way of doing things and that's what makes it so wonderful. Also everyone's willingness to share. What would be the point if someone asked a question and we just answered, "get lost, find out yourself?" It seems the bad posters get weeded out quickly and disappear because people get fed up with them and ignore their posts.
Everyone here contributes and to me it doesn't matter if you subscribe or not.

[karen donnybrook]

I agree Pauline. It does not matter if you are a subscriber or not - what matters is the sharing and caring amoungst ourselves.

Karen

[Norm F]

I think that the open sharing of information on this forum and the friendly, helpful people that hang out here probably cause many people to subscribe. They step in here to test the waters and later decide to subscribe based on positive feedback and the feeling of community. That's how it worked for me.